dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I need advice on how to finish the forge itself. I welded up a basic shape, and it's a box, has a handle and even a door. The issue is that I need to drill a hole for the torch head itself. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 A forge is supposed to heat steel, what is your "door" made of? Is the forge lined with a refractory of any sort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 It seems you need to do a little more research on forges. Searching "gas forge" will give you much info you need. Please take some time to see and learn what's is being used. - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 The door is 1/4" thick steel, as is the rest. Refractory is never required, it just makes heat loss less and makes it more efficient. I may indeed line it, but I cannot until I decide where to best place the hole. I could put it in the bottom (the shiny side) in the center and have the torch direct straight at the metal placed in there, with the forge lain handle up, or I can drill a hole in the side and have the heat spiral upward as it escapes. Which of course would mean I would have it sit shiny side down. I have yet to see a design like mine, google has nothing for me I have not read time and time again over the span of 4 years since I first took interest. I just came here to look for input from someone I hoped had more experience with gas than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Um, refractory is needed. Depending on the burner used, you will most likely heat that box so hot it will deform with no refractory lining it. Depends on what you are trying to do. Even with refractory, i placed my diamondback two burner gasser on my 1/4 inch steel welding table and it heated the table so hot, it bowed in the middle. And thats with a full lining of refractory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) This is a small forge, my torch will be a little one that uses those small blue cylinders. However, as I said before, I cannot place refractory until I know where to do the hole issue. It will not be used much, just for small stuff. It's 9.5"X4"X4". Refractory is required if you use a thinner steel, it'll make it last longer, but in theory you could forge in a soupcan...for about half an hour before it falls apart to nothing. Anyway, I'm seeing more complaint than help. Are there any actual ideas on how to finish this up? Thanks. Edited November 15, 2009 by dothacker Added dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 it wasn't a complaint. Perhaps if you had posted what you were trying to do and with what hardware you wanted to accomplish this, you might have received info to your liking. Sounds like you are asking for help and frustrated with the answer. What you are attempting to make might work to heat metal, but won't be very efficient. Most of the forge designs i have seen have the burners aimed at an angle through the top. these are burners designed to suck air into the forge with them. If you just stick a propane torch through a hole and close the door on that box, it wont have any air to properly combust. If you look at the gas forge section on this site, you can find info on making your own burner, and it is pretty cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 it wasn't a complaint. Perhaps if you had posted what you were trying to do and with what hardware you wanted to accomplish this, you might have received info to your liking. I was not referring to you in specific. I did post what I was trying to do, I need to figure out where to put the hole for the torch. I have pistol drills and drill presses at my disposal for this.Sounds like you are asking for help and frustrated with the answer. I have been given no answers.What you are attempting to make might work to heat metal, but won't be very efficient. Most of the forge designs i have seen have the burners aimed at an angle through the top. these are burners designed to suck air into the forge with them. If you just stick a propane torch through a hole and close the door on that box, it wont have any air to properly combust. If you look at the gas forge section on this site, you can find info on making your own burner, and it is pretty cheap. I am aware of the fire triangle. I'll admit, however, that I do not know a lot about gas forges, they are different from coal types. I figured the door would provide plenty of air with maybe another hole drilled in the side (not sure where relative to the torch hole) with a fan to blow air in. I did take a look and there wasn't much to be found about burners. I am not trying to argue here, but it does seem like you could ask questions to fill in the gaps that I did not provide info about. As stated, I am new to gas forges and I willingly state that I do not know enough to provide every detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 It doesnt really matter if your using a blow torch you would probley want the burner in the side because you should run the torch upside down the top is where most burners go the honest answer try it as is I doubt that if you are planning to forge its going to work the box itself will likely get equally as hot as the metal inside it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Why would you turn the torch upside down? I don't think you're supposed to do that anyway. As for the burner, I have looked and I can't find much info about what a burner exactly is or does. That is what the refractory is for, Bryce. But regardless of how hot the box gets, I cannot try it until I have put a hole in it. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 "Refractory is never required, it just makes heat loss less and makes it more efficient". Oh? I can tell this is not going to end well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 I already stated what I meant by that. There are times where it IS required, such as with thinner cases to make things more practical, but suppose you had some of the older 1" thick cases, you will not burn through that with normal forging. However, it is not cost effective to have walls that thick these days so we compensate with refractory. The added benefit is the extra heat retention. Can we just drop the semantics and get to the issue at point? This thread has become just a collective argument and that really was not my intention. I was just hoping to have a simple question answered by those who know more than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) Sorry, I'm not familiar with "the older 1 inch thick cases". Questions are fine, but you are stating things as fact that are, well, absurd. GIGO. Edited November 15, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Sorry, I'm not familiar with "the older 1 inch thick cases". Questions are fine, but you are stating things as fact that are, well, absurd. GIGO. Regardless, can we get past this now and would you please offer some useful input toward the better answering of my previous stated question regarding hole placement and usage/design of said burner systems as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 O.K. Best placement IMO would high up on one side. Sorry, but even with a good placement it won't work.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Thanks for your input, but would you mind explaining why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithgartner Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Put the the torch tip through the side, closer to the front door than center, and angle it towards the back, to induce swirl. Light it, close the door and wait for the exterior of your box to come to bright orange, then it's ready to open the door and start forging. Hope that handle ain't hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then you can bare your teeth and spit in everybody's eyes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I have yet to see a design like mine, Now I wonder why that would be? Any guesses? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Dothacker, Ever heard of google? check out forge designs, you might decide that the design you chose may be an exercise in futility. Google Larry Zoeller forge, he has lots of great info on burners and forge building. You can also check out blacksmithing supply, it seems to me that there is a good reason most gas forges are similar in design, thats because they work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick C Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Dothacker Look at this link Gas Forges are all over the web Zoeller Forge Home Page Gas Forge parts, Atmospheric Burners, and Blacksmithing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hmmm...the only difference I see between mine and this: Plans to build a simple gas forge is that mine is square (round after refractory is added), and his is round. Obviously he intends to forge larger objects, so he uses a larger diameter. Or am I wrong, and there is something more? I still am not seeing what makes mine so bad, could you please explain what is wrong in detail so I may learn? I do not care if I must start over, I could use this box for storage of tools or something, it may even work for a coal forge, though it would not hold much. However, it seems to be an "exercise in futility" to try and run a forum for help and not teach people. All this sarcasm is not getting anyone anywhere. Now, ironstein, a lot of the ones on google are worse off than mine. I know mine could heat steel, but I want it to be as efficient as it could be, no sense putting the hole one place when it would be tons better in the right place. The only similarity is that they're all boxes or tubes with a hole filled with refractory on the inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) What are the dimensions? Without at least one inch of wool your efficiency is non-existent for a gas forge. Using firebrick stacked loosely together may be more efficient than a plain steel box. Conduction through the sides is your greatest controllable energy loss, then its IR radiation through openings, only after you can sustain an incandescent cavity. Phil Edited November 15, 2009 by pkrankow efficiency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Glad you're thinking about refractory, without it it just plain won't work. The forge will never get much hotter than the walls are. Sounds like you want to use a small propane torch to heat this, is that right? If so, you will not get enough heat from that to heat a forge. Well, short of the "one brick forge" anyway. And I already gave my opinion on placement of the burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothacker Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 What are the dimensions? Without at least one inch of wool your efficiency is non-existent for a gas forge. Using firebrick stacked loosely together may be more efficient than a plain steel box. Conduction through the sides is your greatest controllable energy loss, then its IR radiation through openings, only after you can sustain an incandescent cavity. Phil Wool is too expensive, I'm using castable refractory. By the way, I stated earlier 9.5"X4"X4".Glad you're thinking about refractory, without it it just plain won't work. The forge will never get much hotter than the walls are. Sounds like you want to use a small propane torch to heat this, is that right? If so, you will not get enough heat from that to heat a forge. Well, short of the "one brick forge" anyway. And I already gave my opinion on placement of the burner. Again, stated earlier, I cannot add any refractory until the hole is placed, and yes, a small propane torch that uses those blue propane bottles. Sure, but you never explained why it would not work "even with good placement". Why also will that torch not work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Your little hand-held torch cannot put out nearly enough BTU's for a long enough time to even heat up the forge. A forge is only useful if it can raise a piece of steel to a nice bright orange-yellow not a dull red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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