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Gas forge


dothacker

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Well, until now, it worked fine in open air with no housing of any sort. Been using it not to forge, but heat treat a few things (of little importance because there is no even heating, but beats dead soft steel).

My torch presently is the TS3000 Trigger-Start Bernzomatic Torch. (Product Detail) Btw, they misspelled "applications" on that page. :P

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Dothacker, you said you have been researching gas forges for FOUR years, in that time did you ever find a gas forge design that did NOT use REFRACTORY material?

Do yourself a favor, stop obsessing about the most efficient location for the burner hole and have a good think about the forge itself, because you have missed the concept entirely!!!!!!!
This type of forge is all about the REFRACTORY, the outer shell is only there to provide a platform for the REFRACTORY. This is why you see so many different casing materials and designs. The forge could be constructed without any form of casing if you used a REFRACTORY material capable of supporting itself during use.

Steel, no matter how thick is not considered to be a REFRACTORY material.

To be forged, steel needs to be heated to temperatures of around 2,000+ deg F. Without the use of a REFRACTORY material your steel box would also be heated to the same temperature in the process. This would create certain practical and safety issues, not least of which would be the proximity of your propane torch to a steel box producing that kind of radiant heat!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to persist with your design without the inclusion of a REFRACTORY material inside the box I would suggest the most efficient placement of the hole for your propane torch would be where it allows you to place the torch inside the box with the burner facing outward. That would allow you to slowly roast your piece of steel in the torch flame without having to hold the torch in one hand.

Grant the patience you have displayed is almost at sainthood level.

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Dothacker, you said you have been researching gas forges for FOUR years, in that time did you ever find a gas forge design that did NOT use REFRACTORY material?

Researching blacksmithing for four years, note my many statements stating my lack of ever making a gas forge.

Do yourself a favor, stop obsessing about the most efficient location for the burner hole and have a good think about the forge itself, because you have missed the concept entirely!!!!!!!

Please state for me what is wrong and I will fix it.

This type of forge is all about the REFRACTORY, the outer shell is only there to provide a platform for the REFRACTORY. This is why you see so many different casing materials and designs. The forge could be constructed without any form of casing if you used a REFRACTORY material capable of supporting itself during use.

Even while refractory is a casing, you clearly have not read my posts and merely skimmed to the words that you disliked.

If you want to persist with your design without the inclusion of a REFRACTORY material inside the box I would suggest the most efficient placement of the hole for your propane torch would be where it allows you to place the torch inside the box with the burner facing outward. That would allow you to slowly roast your piece of steel in the torch flame without having to hold the torch in one hand.

Again, you have not fully read what I have typed. I have on many occasions stated that refractory will, and let me state that again so that this time you may skim the word, will, be used, but only after the hole is drilled, you do not cast material and drill through it, it is not practical and it makes it unstable. I have never had the intention of holding anything but a hammer and tongs in my hands during the forging process.

Thank you.
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The door is 1/4" thick steel, as is the rest. Refractory is never required, it just makes heat loss less and makes it more efficient. I may indeed line it, but I cannot until I decide where to best place the hole. I could put it in the bottom (the shiny side) in the center and have the torch direct straight at the metal placed in there, with the forge lain handle up, or I can drill a hole in the side and have the heat spiral upward as it escapes. Which of course would mean I would have it sit shiny side down.

I have yet to see a design like mine, google has nothing for me I have not read time and time again over the span of 4 years since I first took interest. I just came here to look for input from someone I hoped had more experience with gas than I.



Dothacker, I read every post in this thread several times before posting. You have a great deal of input from lots of people with a great deal of experience with gas. Your statement hi-lighted above clearly indicates that you do not have a grasp of the basic principles of gas forges.

Do yourself a favor and read through every post in the site archives relating to gas forges, the wealth of information there might amaze you.
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You need only 1 running foot of kaowool which is about $8 and shipping from Anvilfire.com or Zoellerforge.com That would be 1 running foot x 24 inch width.

You may also be better served using a lighter weight shell body like a coffee can with that torch, lined with wool and that torch. This way you can cut with tin snips, set up for tangential entry and still have material for 2 layers of wool. You then take a piece of scrap wool and put it at the back for 1 inch at the back. If you need longer stock to pass then cut a hole in the back later, about 2x2 inch, and save the wool to plug the hole when you don't need the opening. You can cut up a second coffee can for a stand and to support your burner.

You will probably burn out several torches of that type in the lifespan of this type of body! You may also choose to build a 1/2 inch burner like on Zoller's website, or on Ron Reil's website Forge and Burner Design Page #1 when your original burner starts to fail.

This plate steel shell may best end up being used for some other purpose other than a forge body, possibly as a quench tank since it has a steel lid already and appears to have a sealed bottom. The steel lid is desirable to extinguish oil baths that sometimes catch fire and stay lit. It is also small enough to put into a metal bucket of sand in case of spillage.

I applaud Grant as well for his patience.

Phil

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In the same sense that a computer is never required in your life. It just makes things easier. What is REQUIRED is food, shelter, water, etc. Do you see what I meant? I was hoping we were past the trolling. I WILL be using refractory and I DO believe that in 99% of forges, it SHOULD be used. I will try not to say once more what I have said many times before regarding my intention of refractory. We are done.

Having gone past the argument portion, for good, what indeed makes mine different than any of the other forges I have found on google? Other than using wool, that is. I still have no definitive answer on where to put the hole, or why, and after searching and even asking, no replies on burners. Sure I could steal the design linked here a hundred times, but that website itself says not to and that there are myriads of working designs for gas forges, some of his are similar to mine, and that the premade burners on his site need to be modified to suit your purposes. If I did a bad job at searching, link me to useful information and then shun my searching skills.

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You have stated many times "tell me what is wrong with my design and I will fix it" In a nut shell your forge box will disapate BTUs faster than your burner can create them. Your burner has to heat the box before any stock can be heated to forging temp. Your burner will heat a volume of about 10 to 12 cubic inches of properly insulated space. The mass (weight) of the forge needs to kept to a minimum to make it work as you must heat that mass first before any stock can be heated. It really comes down to the weight of the forge not the thickness of the shell. We all really want to help you. Most of us have wasted alot of time and money making mistakes. We would like to help you avoid the same.
Phil+

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You have stated many times "tell me what is wrong with my design and I will fix it" In a nut shell your forge box will disapate BTUs faster than your burner can create them. Your burner has to heat the box before any stock can be heated to forging temp. Your burner will heat a volume of about 10 to 12 cubic inches of properly insulated space. The mass (weight) of the forge needs to kept to a minimum to make it work as you must heat that mass first before any stock can be heated. It really comes down to the weight of the forge not the thickness of the shell. We all really want to help you. Most of us have wasted alot of time and money making mistakes. We would like to help you avoid the same.
Phil+


Thank you, this is perhaps the first pleasant reply so far. The mass part makes sense, but I'd rather not spend money on wool when I already bought castable refractory good for 3500 degrees F. I plan on making that about half an inch to an inch thick. A small space like that will be quick to heat, I suppose. Even enclosing the torch and metal in a coffee can with nothing else increased the temperature dramatically, so I thought it wouldn't take much to heat a small space like what I'm imagining my forge will be after refractory. However, as most of the mass will be refractory, it would be different than if I was heating up steel alone, right? So you say 10-12 cubic inches, right? Given the final inside dimensions will be somewhere near 7.75"X2.625"X2.625", are you saying this will be sufficient, or not?
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You inside dimensions figure out to be about 53 cubic inches. length x hiegth x width= volume. try taking a tube from the inside of toliet paper centered iiside a large bean can fill the inside with your castable. Let it dry. Poke a hole in the bottom of the can on an angle so the flame will swrill along the sides. Stick your burner in it let the cardboard tube burn out and see what you get. Do not stick more than 1/4 inch at the most into the can as the heat will damage your torch.

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You cannot increase the power of your torch. You will need to build a proper burner. The pipe will be the cheap part. 7 inch long 3/4 black pipe and a 1 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch bell reducer. 6 inches of 3/4 square tubing, a brass 1/8 pipe plug with a .028 hole thru it, a 1/4 inch ball valve. The expensive part is the propane tank, hose, and regulator put it all together put as close as you can to the center of the top and it will get hot.
Phil

Edited by peacock
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"Til shade is gone, til (sic) water is gone, into the
Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with
the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

It is generally considered good manners to credit an author when quoting his work, however Robert Jordan (James Oliver Rigney, Jnr.) died in September 2008 so I guess he is past being miffed at this oversight on your part.

The guys who have generoulsy given of their time and knowledge responding to this thread are very much alive and could very likely take exception to your seemingly ungracious and beligerent comments.

By your own statement you are claiming a unique gas forge design, with the only similarity between it and existing, proven gassers is that they occupy a similar space, yet you seem to be demanding that someone applauds your efforts, pats you on the back, oh, and by the way tell you exactly where and how to place your handy man propane torch to make it all work efficiently.

I stand by my opinion that having regard to your comments you appear to have no grasp of the basic principles of a gas fired forge, but you are persisting in rejecting replies that don't suit your argument in a fairly unpleasant manner.

BTW the stated volume of your forge including 'refractory that is never needed' is about 54 cubic inches. Peacock told you the capacity of your burner is about 12 cubic inches. Did you expect him to tell you that it it would be insufficient so that you could deem his response to be unpleasant?

Young man I suggest you step back, take a few deep breaths then return with a more moderate attitude and a willingness to to accept advise from those with a greater knowledge, and a reluctance to argue from a stance of ignorance.

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"Til shade is gone, til (sic) water is gone, into the
Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with
the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

It is generally considered good manners to credit an author when quoting his work, however Robert Jordan (James Oliver Rigney, Jnr.) died in September 2008 so I guess he is past being miffed at this oversight on your part.

I could have sworn I put credit at the end, but I guess I did not, my mistake.

The guys who have generoulsy given of their time and knowledge responding to this thread are very much alive and could very likely take exception to your seemingly ungracious and beligerent comments.

By your own statement you are claiming a unique gas forge design, with the only similarity between it and existing, proven gassers is that they occupy a similar space, yet you seem to be demanding that someone applauds your efforts, pats you on the back, oh, and by the way tell you exactly where and how to place your handy man propane torch to make it all work efficiently.

Where did you get that idea? I do not look for credit anywhere like most who make a thread to say "Hey, look what I made today." I see no uniquity, a forge is a container, all others are a variation.

I stand by my opinion that having regard to your comments you appear to have no grasp of the basic principles of a gas fired forge, but you are persisting in rejecting replies that don't suit your argument in a fairly unpleasant manner.

I am rejecting harassment replies such as yours, you cannot seem to accept that I do in fact accept refractory, while having said what I did. I will admit, I did not expect people to take it so literal, else I'd have worded it in another manner, so that is my mistake.

BTW the stated volume of your forge including 'refractory that is never needed' is about 54 cubic inches. Peacock told you the capacity of your burner is about 12 cubic inches. Did you expect him to tell you that it it would be insufficient so that you could deem his response to be unpleasant?

Did you, once more, not read? I am going with his idea and removing my existing torch to build what he suggested for a burner.

Young man I suggest you step back, take a few deep breaths then return with a more moderate attitude and a willingness to to accept advise from those with a greater knowledge, and a reluctance to argue from a stance of ignorance.

I'd rather take advice from someone who shall not be a hypocrite, and keep a cool head. Thank you, the argument is officially dead.
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Please read the print. You do use the threads in both ends of the bell reducer. The shape of the bell is the key to making this work. There is a way to forge this shape but you need a working forge to do it. I have tried to be helpfull, you are a machinist just follow the print and it will work just fine.
Phil

Edited by peacock
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The whole idea behind the burner designs you are trying to create is efficiency. You could make one, but if you bend one yourself, with a bell, and its not smooth, there will be turbulence and the burner will be noisy and erratic. Some guys use a choke atop the bell to create the different flame characteristics. Plumbing parts are cheap, and i would think bending and welding your burner would be way more trouble than its worth. As for burner placement, i have seen both angled burners that help create the swirl effect, and like my own gasser, pipes straight down from the top center. Mine throws the flames straight down onto the refractory firebrick in the bottom of my forge, it is a diamondback two burner blacksmith model.
I am really impressed with the patience displayed by fellow members in this thread.

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Peacock, I was thinking of turning it on a lathe and welding it to the pipe and sq stock. The print itself was a bit confusing, though.

Ironstein, I was also debating upon whether to burn it out on a CNC plasma and roll it, it would be perfect size and shape, I was concerned of if it could withstand the heat, if it came into contact with it. If it's at the top and it throws down on top, does that present an issue of heating the steel too much, or did I misread the intention of your statement? Like I said, it may turn out to be less trouble to make the parts than to go to town in the winter then strip the galvanization with acetic acid (it's all I can get right now). However, I'll also ask if anyone has spare parts around.

*edit*

You cannot increase the power of your torch. You will need to build a proper burner. The pipe will be the cheap part. 7 inch long 3/4 black pipe and a 1 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch bell reducer. 6 inches of 3/4 square tubing, a brass 1/8 pipe plug with a .028 hole thru it, a 1/4 inch ball valve. The expensive part is the propane tank, hose, and regulator put it all together put as close as you can to the center of the top and it will get hot.

What I meant to say by confusing was that instead of the 1/8 pipe, I'm using 3/4, and I'm not sure what the sq tubing is for, to hold the pipe to the reducer? It doesn't quite match the print. Edited by dothacker
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I was just referring to burner placement and articulation. The burner body (intake tube with bell) should not get hot. It is drawing air for combustion into the forge along with the fuel. This mixture is combusting maybe an inch into the forge and creating the jet-like flame. My forge burners stay so cool you can put your hand on them and they are barely warm.
You can plasma cut and roll your tubes, i was just stating that you should make sure and keep everything smooth. Aerodynamic is the key to an efficient design. If you have a jagged tube it will create turbulence and your flame will be all over the place. Good luck. Just remember that it needs air to combust properly.

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