Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Go for it! I don't see any problems at all! You sound like you have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. That what you want to hear? Nothing anyone said was "negative". There is a big difference between negative and well thought out opinions based on experience and an understanding of physics. Thanks Wedwards. Being diplomatic sure wasn't working. Like I didn't give any "constructive" ideas on how to mount his hammer based on my limited experience installing 25 or 30 hammers during the past 40 years and helping others with many more. Most people would have come back with something like "thank you all for your input, you've given me a lot to think about", right? Edited October 6, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 We will, without exception, all applaud installing your hammer in a new manner, whether it is with springs, shock absorbers, or twisting balloons. Ethically myself, and likely others, feel a responsibility to warn a fellow smith to be very careful when we perceive that something may be hazardous. Not trying to be negative, just trying to be helpful and warn to be very careful of possible hazards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Here's a 700 pound hammer mounted on 8" timbers and some conveyor belting sitting on a concrete floor. Never seen a 75 that even needed that much thought given to mounting:YouTube - My little "steam" hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Wow! Aren't we all sensitive! I suggest reading the entire thread to those who want to pass judgment, before getting all bent out of shape. We can disagree without being so negative and judgmental. This is about exploring ideas, not proving each other wrong. I have received a number of excellent suggestions throughout the thread, and if you had bothered to read the thread, you would know that. If you are going to be insulted if I do not agree with you, sorry about that. Again, I am not interested in some contest to prove who is right or wrong fellas, just ideas. This is not some personal challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Nobody here getting sensitive, maybe just a little weary. If your ideas won't stand up to critical debate without you feeling that people are being "negative and judgmental" them maybe, just maybe you should rethink them without saying people are just being negative and discouraging. Most people don't "explore new ideas" before they even know what the old ideas are. If you've never installed a hammer before, how do you even know what problems you're trying to solve? As has been said here many times "it's like thinking you can design a car when you've never even driven one". Might happen, but unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Here is my bottom line. If you ask if you can, be prepared for neg response. I tend to just do it. then when told it won't work show it. Also gives ya an oppertunity to bail when it don't work. Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Wow! Aren't we all sensitive! . . . If you are going to be insulted if I do not agree with you, sorry about that. Again, I am not interested in some contest to prove who is right or wrong fellas, just ideas. This is not some personal challenge. I learned many years ago that if one argues with a fool soon there are just two fools arguing. So I am neither arguing nor am I insulted. This thread certainly has not been a contest to me. I made my living for thirty years being paid for advice. Most took it and it worked out fine for them. Many did not and I made even more money straightening out their mess. If I was insulted back then it was only until I got to the bank. If I were licensed in NM I would like having you as a client. Good luck on the installation. I really do mean it. AR SK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Air ride suspensions are both spring and damper. There are applications where a leaf spring is fastened in the middle, and both ends are free. Both ends can also be shackled (link plates), as long as the shackles have some movement. These arrangements are generally not considered heavy duty. When dealing with a cyclical load, the energy needs to be dissipated or counteracted, otherwise the system will develop more movement as it operates. The exception would be if your spring value (k) were selected such that a free node with zero movement occurs at the location of interest, at the frequency specified. This only works for constant operation, not frequent on/off operation. The purpose of a spring is to return energy with little or no loss. In reality even the best springs are modeled as a spring and damper. The damper is very small for steel springs. The purpose of a damper, "dash pot" or shock absorber is to dissipate energy due to motion. Many materials are effectively modeled as a spring and a damper. Rubber and wood are frequently modeled as such. Vibrational analysis throws a wrench into the works. Yes I took that class, no I am not doing a detailed analysis on this. I didn't enjoy vibrations. Build a deep isolated concrete foundation with a 1-2 inch expansion gap between the machine base and the rest of the slab. Use common asphalt expansion board used for sidewalks, just layer it up. Leave about 12 inches earth between the machine foundation and the structure foundation. Lay on some 4x4 timbers, and/or a layer of rubber conveyor belting(no steel allowed). Bolt the machine through the timbers and belting into the concrete using concrete anchors and an epoxy bonding agent. Your neighbors shouldn't feel vibrations. (depends on the type of earth in your area) Any vibrations transmitted to the main foundation will be less than a semi-truck driving past. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Pkrankow, thanks for some real information. If I need to saw the slab and pour concrete, your method is essentially identical to the method I have decided to use and would most certainly yield a workable result. Have you ever considered the Firestone Airmount Isolator (airbag) to mount a hammer? Apparently, a version is used under commercial forging hammers. I am considering the alternative of a spring or air-isolated installation, in an attempt to make a base that can be moved in the shop or to another shop when the time comes, that would not require sawing a slab and pouring a large amount of concrete each time the hammer is moved. The possibility of moving the hammer in the shop would offer a great deal of flexibility for space and layout. Would an airbag type installation provide the necessary shock damping to eliminate the need for an isolated foundation, not just vibration isolation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 just my story.. i installed a 50lbs beaudry/stockwell hammer in my garage which is bout 20feet away from my neighbours.. .. i was real worried about it and i emailed john several times.. he sent me to fabreeka and i got some pads.. -looked at the 50lbs Little giant plan/baseblock - then i cut the slab.. dug it out... poured a cement sleeve..... then put the pads in there and poured 14 wheel barrows of cement for the baseblock with anchor rods... and pads on the sidewall.. so the baseblock never comes in contact with anything.... put one layer of marine plywood down and then mounted the hammer to the baseblock anchor bolts.. -- when i run the hammer full out.. it doesn't shake the shop at all.. .. and the noise is the virtually the same as when i hammer on the anvil.. - it was great to see the look on my neighbours face when he saw what i was running in the shop... he had no clue.. and i was very very glad to put in the effort.. besides.... i've tried 50lb LG's on timber and they don't hit as hard .... so.. i've got 1 install under my belt.. so take my story for what it is...my beginners experience ;) take care n good luck Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 For clarity Ive started a new thread on isolating slabs :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I've never installed a hammer. I took a 400 level class called vibrational analysis in school, and this was a reoccurring theme. Various equipment would be mounted to beam floors or slabs. The isolated slab foundation was recommendable for all cases. Complex solutions would be used for equipment that was installed on beam floors (elevated levels) that a slab could not be put under, because the floor would act as an efficient spring. I would expect pouring 2 or 3 of these isolated slabs would be less expensive than a set of industrial airbags. I think you need to contact the vendor team and have a solution engineered for you. I am not much help, sorry. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Just to finish the thread about moving the hammer. I got lucky, and a friend offered to let me put my hammer and other blacksmithing stuff in a warehouse of his to use. Thankfully, it has a very thick slab. The hammer was delivered there with a local freight truck/trailer with a lift gate. It easily cleared the door there, and we wheeled it in on the pallet with a pallet jack. It is sitting on the pallet, while I clean it. I still have to figure out how to get it off the pallet safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) The easiest way to move power hammers is with a forklift using straps. If you don't have the height for pulling from above, use a heavy beam (wood or steel) in under the ram. The hammer should be as close to your forklift as possible. Be sure you are only lifting against the hammer frame. Use a safety chain so the hammer cannot slide off the tines. If you lift against moving parts, it's likely you will break something. If you are moving a Fairbanks or upright Bradley, you may be able to stick a forklift tine through the round opening behind the ram and lift. But again... it's extremely important to have safety chains in place so the hammer can't turn over or slide off. Some hammers are top heavy, so if you are lifting from the center of the hammer, have safety chains that address that issue also. Edited October 13, 2009 by djhammerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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