james gonzalez Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hey Farmer. I have moved a #50 little giant, a Champion #1 and a 3x6 platen with a harbor freight engine hoist (not at the same time). It will work as long as you are on level ground. Get the lifting arm as short as you can and lift from as high a point on the hammer as you can so you dont tip. Also, I have rolled hammers along slabs using 1/4" round rod as rollers. If it were me, I would hammerdrill a hole down a couple inches somewhere in the garage slab, drop a 1" bar in the hole and use a comealong to get the machine inside. If there was a forklift around, he could just push the hammer in with some timber clamped to the tines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 A low mast forklift like I have would make this job so easy for you, too bad you are not closer to me. One of the forklifts I have is a 5K Toyota that was made for loading trailers, so the mast is only about 6' tall or so. If the lift is too tall it can be used to push it through the doorway. Getting it across the floor wouldn't be that bad. My smaller lathe is 5,200# and I have moved it several times with a pinch bar ,and rollers. To get it off of the pallet will depend on the pallet design, or if it is a skid of some sort. A skid will be easier to off load from than a standard pallet since you can jack it up, and slide the skid beams out from under it. Not knowing what your hammer looks like makes it a little difficult to offer suggestions. But to be honest 2,500# isn't that bad. Since you are doing concrete work anyway, I would drill a 2" hole where the hammer is going, and drop in a piece of pipe to anchor to. Get a come-along, and some chain. Anchor the pallet so it doesn't move, and build a ramp in front of it with whatever you have handy; wood,metal, etc.. Toss a chain around the base , and attach the come-along. As a safety measure hang a couple of small sandbags/weights on the cable, and chain just in case something lets loose. The weight will keep the chain, or cable from whipping back at you. Start pulling, and slide it off of the pallet, and over to where it is going to end up. Should slide fine on the concrete. All in all , you can do all of that, or just use a forklift which will do the job in far far less time. I am guessing 15 minutes, or so. Look around your neighborhood for someone with a forklift, backhoe, front end loader, etc..Who knows, you may end up with a new smithing buddy out of it. Look on Craigslist too. On my local CL I missed a free 6K lift that ran, a running 6K all terrain for $650, and there are others listed for $500-$1,200. It is one of those tools that you think"What would I use that for?" until you have one then it is "Wish I had bought this earlier!" If you were closer I would lend you mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 What sort of door frame have you got in the garage? Maybe removing the top member of that and replacing it after the hammer has gone in would be a good idea. If that gave you enough clearance then you only need a simple pallet jack to get the machine in. For that matter is it just one small part of the top of the hammer that is the same height as the frame? If so could you tip the hamer and slide the top inside the garage and then restore it to upright once inside there? What are the other dimensions? Could it go in on one side and then be stood up once in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 Thanks for the suggestions everyone. What I know about the height is what the seller told me-84" tall, since the hammer is in transit. Some of the Fairbanks hammers apparently were different heights, depending on the year made, based on the literature I have. I am hoping that there is something like a pulley that can be removed to clear the door. Making a ramp by the pallet and pulling the hammer off is a great idea. I hope it works, since that would save me on renting something to lift it with. Drilling the floor and pulling from a bar or pipe is also a great idea. The only lift I would need to do then is to lift the hammer up on an elevated base inside the garage, if I decide to elevate it. A conversation I had today concerning vibration and shock to the floor raised an interesting point. Has anyone ever tried to isolate their hammer on a thick sheet of steel with a number of very stiff springs welded under the plate and perhaps to another bottom plate that rested on the floor, instead of building an isolated concrete foundation? Sort of a spring sandwich between tow heavy plates. Would it lessen the force of the hammer blows too much with the springs compressing any? It seems it would eliminate the need for an isolated foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Many things "act" as springs; wood padding, rubber etc. I've seen big hammers set up similar to what you describe. Paccar had a large forge shop and machine shops on the same site. Their 5000 and 10,000 pound hammers were fastened to concrete bocks that were maybe 40' CUBE. Under all this were "Gods own" springs. But they also had shock absorbers. All this was in a "basement" built of very thick concrete also. Fraid you'll get a lot of bouncing with just springs alone. Ever ride in a car with worn out shocks or no shock absorbers? Springs absorb energy but return it quickly too (rebound). You need shocks to dissipate the energy slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 I am thinking of very heavy leaf springs and not some bouncy coil springs. These springs, such as from a heavy-duty truck, would be welded between two steel plates with the hammer mounted on the top plate. There would be 10-12" of arc maybe on the springs. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I'm no engineer but I have ridden in autos with springs but no shocks. Nakedanvil is right. Springs are springs. As long as they are stout enough to provide rebound, without dampening (i.e. shocks) you probably will not be happy with the result. A proper sized concrete pad on undisturbed soil and isolated from the rest of the surrounding concrete floor makes very good sense. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 A heavy forging company in Sydney i worked for had a 7 cwt, 10 cwt, two 15 cwts, 30 cwt and 1000 ton hydraulic press all on inertia blocks (cubes of concrete) sitting on huge coil springs. It worked well; factory was near residential area. I'm sorry i don't have useful details (industrial secrets!) but it can be done. Here is how i moved my '84lb' spring hammer. I stripped the loose bits off (needed rebuild anyway), Fork guy laid it over and i built up a dolly under it- Me mate and I winched it into a horse float (tandem axle, 1 ton capacity). Drove it to new site, another fork put it back upright; currently sitting on steel dolly in upright postion awaiting restoration (sorry; don't have pic yet). This guy ha done some facinating stuff with heavy things, the videos are inspiring!Pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island and the Great Pyramid explained by Wallace Wallington! So yer, everones ideas are definately good. I'd only add that the more supporting structure you build for the move eg jigs, harness, armature, dollies etc. the easier, safer and more confident the move. However you can spend ages building those (like me!). I've tried to offset this by making my wheel-and-axle sets adaptable to other uses. Have fun, be safe AndrewOC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james gonzalez Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Farmer, I think you will be able to get away with some solid timbers bolted together for a base. My friend has a Champion #1, rated at 60# or 65#( I forget exactly) running on a timber base and a 4" pad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 A spring is a spring is a spring. Some cars have leaf springs, some have coil. Sitting in the car (even riding down the road), can tell which ones the car has? Think this through. A leaf spring is connected solid on one end to one plate and solid in the middle to the other plate and loose at the other end, right. I guess if you arranged them in a square layout. Yeah, it's do-able I guess and compact. But it's still going to bounce around, BOING! BOING! BOING! Just put a timber base under it about 3 foot square and forget about it. You'll probably want to raise it 8 - 10 inches anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I find the thought of springs a bit frightening. If you do it right fine, if not, ouch. Using springs may be one of those situations that I might consult an engineer. Ouch, boing ouch, boing ouch, boing ouch, boing ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Come on you guys. Don't be afraid of an idea just because it is unfamiliar to you. No, the leaf springs would be welded to one plate at each end and probably welded to the other plate in the middle of the spring. It would be just like leaf springs mounted to a frame and an axle, except two plates would be used. Sure, a big mass of concrete in a hole isolated from the slab will work, but it seems something more creative should work that is much easier to move when moving day comes, which always does at some point. Oh, yeah, Wedwards, is that a lightening-fast-chicken-plucker (ASA) symbol by your name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 It is. 1964-1970. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Me too - 1975-1978. 31T30 at Vint Hill Farms Station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 05H20, 05H40, Taipei, Taiwan, Chitose, Japan, and a special operations unit that so far as I know they still don't want us to talk about. Don't want to highjack the thread here but it's your thread and you started it:p Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I meant to add (to keep the thread on track) that the springs idea is not inherently bad. Apparently there are hammers mounted on springs which work quite well. I will bet the installation is professionally designed to account for center of gravity, balanced and calibrated springs, even balance etc. to ensure uniform and symmetrical movement. If not I'd think that the hammer could get to rocking in ways which at least could make it difficult to keep your work on the anvil. But it may work just fine. Try it and let us know what you find. I'd be interested to hear. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Have you ever welded springs to steel plate? It can be done, but almost always the weld will break. If you weld both ends to one plate and load the arch of the spring something has to give. I am not trying to stomp on your idea I am trying to keep you from getting hurt if the springs in this arrangement breaks the hammer could tip or turnover. New ideas are great that is how we make progress. But expierence is also very valuable. Springs store enegry, you want a base that absorbs energy. Please make a small mockup of your idea and test it setting on the floor and hit it with a hand hammer. Please protect your body parts the hammer may come at you faster than you think. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) "It would be just like leaf springs mounted to a frame and an axle, except two plates would be used". No, it is not. Any installation of leaf springs has ONE end fixed and the other on a pivot. As the spring is compressed it must be allowed to get longer. Welded as described, it would no longer be a spring, it would be rigid and will surely break. A spring that is not allowed to spring is no longer a spring. Timbers will give you all the cushion you want or need. Edited October 5, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Springs and dampers works well, gets spendy very fast. Ive used them on industrial installations under the concrete inertia block and acheived 100% attenuation from surrounding ground. Have a look here..... GERB - Applications the frequency of the isolators needs to be tuned to that of the hammer. Not sure if the variable speed blow of a spring hammer would casue problems in this regard. Ild do alot of homework before attempting a diy system or your going to end up with a very bouncy hammer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 AND note that the units John is referring to are a combination of springs and DAMPENERS. Springs alone will not do what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Yes, my original idea of leaf springs welded to a plate would be functional, since the plate connection, to be just like a frame and axle, involves a shackle which contains a shackle pin that allows the end of the spring to pivot. The GERB example and picture is quite elegant, and I am sure expensive. That picture also made me think of airbag suspensions. Perhaps airbags would be an even better way to go and are easily obtainable, since they are often used on custom car suspensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) O.K. How long will you play around with all this before you give up? Remember (this has served me well when I go off on a tangent like you're doing): THE BEST SOLUTION IS ALWAYS THE SIMPLEST ONE THAT WORKS! So, are you going to spend your time on hammer foundation R&D or forging? Air bags: a spring is a spring is a spring. Any spring without a dampener will go BOING, BOING, BOING! Edited October 5, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Ild do alot of homework before attempting a diy system or your going to end up with a very bouncy hammer! Ive been in the industry a long time, and installed a lot of hammers. Ill post up some sketchs of the simplest isolation system that works tomorrow when im back in work, ive been meaning to do it for James Johnsons install on his 75 kg Anyang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer12888 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Thanks John N in advance for the effort of the drawing/description. Constructive ideas are always welcome, rather than just negative and discouraging comments. I may "just give up" before it is over, but I will certainly use my mind considering more than just the way it has always been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedwards Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 . . . A conversation I had today concerning vibration and shock to the floor raised an interesting point. Has anyone ever tried to isolate their hammer on a thick sheet of steel with a number of very stiff springs welded under the plate and perhaps to another bottom plate that rested on the floor, instead of building an isolated concrete foundation? Sort of a spring sandwich between tow heavy plates. Would it lessen the force of the hammer blows too much with the springs compressing any? It seems it would eliminate the need for an isolated foundation. Farmer12888, You have asked us for input on mounting the hammer, I assumed to help you think through the project and explore options. There have been more than a few replies from people with a LOT of experience. They have given you the input you asked for and you argue with it calling it negative and discouraging. It appears that you knew from the beginning how you were going to install the hammer so why did you ask for advice? I have been a member here for only a very short time but I think I know enough about the members here that if I were to look for a "yes man" I would not likely find one on this forum. Good luck in your project. I hope your plan works safely and you prove all of us wrong. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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