double_edge2 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 ok that would be middle....extreme might be no drill, just the dull bit, 10mm hole in h13? sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 :cool:Now I see! You're in the "up-side-down" part of the world! I think you're just one of them there "contraryians", aren't 'cha?:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolmaker Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 well if they break it will be alesson learnen,then I will have to teach myself to forge weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 :cool:Now I see! You're in the "up-side-down" part of the world! I think you're just one of them there "contraryians", aren't 'cha? i was waiting for that.........lol actually according to relativity...to me, you lot .......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolmaker Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 4140 is an oil quench material. I will be sur to Anneal them when finnished. Wd&mlteach nice job on the tongs. matweb is a good resource for material data.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd&mlteach Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Thanks, Hey I bet that is what the book meant by "only use mild steel". As nakedanvil pointed out you should not get your tongs to red heat, but you get them at least that hot and hotter during the manufacturing process. Now that I have some experience at making them I can say that there were times that I had to quench in order to switch sides or just to be able to handle them. And that quenching would have made them brittle. I had some experience with this recently. A couple of weeks ago I was searching the scrap yard for some steel and found a motherload of round 1/4" x 2', great stuff for making hooks I thought. So I bought some, made a hook, and quenched it when I was done. It looked good except it needed tweaking a little on the end. So I placed it on the anvil and gave it a tap. The perfectly formed scroll snapped off and hit me square in the mouth. I do not know what type of steel that stuff is, but I can tell you it is not mild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Toolmaker: Actually, because it is oil-hardening, most people use 4140 "as-forged" for things like tongs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) wd&mlteach: Well, you didn't "have" to quench them, you chose to. Wait until it gets down to black and it won't be a problem. Now your "mystery metal" is a different story. Many steels in 1/4" section can even air harden enough to break. That's why we call it mystery metal. Edited September 6, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hey Grant Double edge comes from queensland where they have to spell beer like this XXXX cause they arent too good at spelling, (but at the moment they seem to be good at playing football) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 nakedanvil, it is a term used at a local welding shop that I get some of my metals from. He refers to 4140 as half hard and O-1/W-1 as hard. I guess the term is not universal, my apologies. By the way I tried making tongs today. I started out with 1/2" x 1" x 15" and after many hours I only got as far as this. I had a blast doing it but I had no idea how long it takes to draw out two pieces like that, holy cow! I now have a new found respect for anybody who has made a set of tongs! Got them this far I will try to finish on Monday. I was always under the opinion that 1/2x1 is pretty big stuff to draw down. You'll prolly end up pushing 1/4" material out of the reigns. 1/4x1, 1/4x3/4 or 1/4x7/8's I think would be more in the vicinity. Even 3/16 I think is thick enough. I've got 1/2 x 1" on my shelf and I think unless your picking up some really heavy stock that's prolly going to be overkill or you'll spend to much time working it. But of course it depends on your process. Regardless your work looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd&mlteach Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yea, it sure was heavy stock took me all day to draw them out. I did not get a chance to finish them yet and like you said they are heavy, too heavy for what I do. However, it was a great learning process for me and I got a chance to learn first hand what works and what does not work during drawing out. The funny thing is that I just wanted a small pair only around 8-12" long, HAH! Next time I will pick on some 3/8" square stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Hey Grant Double edge comes from queensland where they have to spell beer like this XXXX cause they arent too good at spelling, (but at the moment they seem to be good at playing football) Phil actually, im not a queenslander, but i understand that you cant read the symbols or string them together vocally:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reid Neilsen Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Yea, it sure was heavy stock took me all day to draw them out. I forge the majority of my tongs out of 3/4" square stock. Unless they are going to be really little tongs, in which case I'll use 1/2" square. I have found that it is plenty of "meat" to forge whatever type of jaws you want - plus I just forgeweld on the reins to save labor. Saves some drawing out sweat. BTW, if you choose to draw out the reins, here is a trick (I am sure you are already aware of this one, but..): 1. Heat that sucker to a bright, bright yellow(get all the heat you can wthout burning it up), 2. Draw it over the fat part of the horn or a bottom fuller - rounded edge of the anvil works too... 3. And WORK THOUGHT THE FULL HEAT(obviously stopping when it cools too much to be effective). You will do it so much faster you will be amazed. The time it takes in between heats is the time consuming part. Less heats usually equals project done faster. It may mean a little more muscle applied to each heat, but it is worth it in my opinion. Edited September 10, 2009 by Reid Neilsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 There are plenty of videos out there I use 1/4"x3/4" mild steel I did a video blacksmithing 101 on my wed site Welcome to nokomis Forge - Hand-Crafted Custom Ironwrok there are other referance on the video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mite5255 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) Hey Grant Double edge comes from queensland where they have to spell beer like this XXXX cause they arent too good at spelling, (but at the moment they seem to be good at playing football) Phil[/quote question......who makes the best Queenslander answer N.S.Welshmen and Victorians ;-))))) Edited September 11, 2009 by mite5255 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_edge2 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 lol....like a virus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Finished my first set of tongs today. Took 3 one hour sessions to make them. They started as 1/2 inch round hot roll with a fair bit of rust on it. The metal is thin at the pivot, and it took me several tries to get the rivet to work. I ended up cutting the head off of a large landscaping spike so I only had to upset one side. I wanted to do a flat "whoop whoop" jaw on it, but failed. Tore the first rivet out trying to shape. I used them to make some leaf key fobs after I finished them. Took some adjusting after making to get them to be useful, and they still need adjusting. I got leaves down to less than 5 heats now! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisG Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 good job on a first try, how do they work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 try using a couple of rail road spikes ...you'll have more than enought to draw them out to 15-16 inches or so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Not bad at all for your first pair. Maybe try a simpler jaw next time, the Whoops are really handy but take a little more practice to get right. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I don't have RR spikes and am not sure where to get some easily. If I have to spend $10 on spikes I can buy new steel. Sadly the local scrapyards don't sell to the public anymore, and I need to network some too. What are the rough dimensions on a RR spike? I have some pieces of 1/2 square from an old fireplace grate that I am going to try to make into flat jaw tongs. The center bars burnt away to 1/4 inch round, but the end bars are fat, and the welds broke easy. I forgot I had this steel squirreled away... No more whoops for a while with me! They are fickle, and the shape is not very easy to set up, let alone match! I though about making these into chisel tongs, but just folded the steel against itself. I might reshape the jaw (yet again) and let my brother arc weld them into chisel tongs when I go visit next. That wouldn't be cheating would it? I'm not ready to fire weld yet, and I don't think the joint would survive that heat. Heck, I'm not sure the joint will survive the jaws being reshaped again! They hold fair. The extra length is very nice as I don't have to reach through dragonsbreath. I think they flex too much to have good grip strength, both in the jaw and handle. The jaw is not very well shaped even though I took several tries at it. I reduced the reins to about 3/8, which is comfortable, but may be too thin. I know the riveted joint is too thin, so it may be better to use them till they fail and just build replacements. I learned SO much doing these. I learned about drawing on the edge of the anvil and marking spots to work at heat (I used a hacksaw to mark with). I learned that upsetting rivet heads is a pain. As I said earlier I used the head of a landscape spike due to frustration. I also impressed my dad to no end! He watched as I drew the reins out. I know he was wishing his right arm was strong enough to give a try. (40+ years of using impact tools leads to bone loss) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Good goin' there Phil. That's what ya gotta do, just get in there and start beatin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Grant. The books only take one so far... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 What are the rough dimensions on a RR spike? they're about 5/8 square and about 6" or so long keep in mind you can forge the bit and joint and a stub and weld on the reins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Phil: That put a big smile on my mug, took me right back to some of my firsts. The DANG moments, the Ah HAH! moments and all the little bits learned every time I lit a fire. Heck, every time I LIGHT a fire. Ain't it a HOOT? There's NOTHING like playing with fire and beating steel into submission. Reading about it is good but doing it is . . . IT. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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