thecelticforge Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Does anyone know if we can purchase wootz? I heard a while back that a guy in FL. was making ingots but that is all. I have some I purchased in the middle east. They were small scraps and of no value to collectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drako11 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What are wootz?? If I new I might know where to get some lol. You never know! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wootz is a ultra high carbon (over 1%) crucible steel that includes carbide forming elements like Vanadium and Chromium. It is batch made, and there are few published recipes. It needs a coating of iron to be workable and is very hot short. Due to the high carbon content it is supposed to be workable from "black" or "very dull red" to "red" heat. Under air quench it gets a high hardness due to the carbide inclusions that form, but the non-carbide matrix remains flexible, giving it a watered look like pattern welded steel. The stuff is very interesting. Have fun with that. I want to give wootz a try at some point, but not anytime soon. Too involved for my current abilities. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 You want to look up Al Pendray. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 There is a Belgium smith who makes a lot of wootz, I think he may also sell cakes of it if you ask him nicely Fabian's website is Fabian Damanet not the best website for information, but he is a very helpful and friendly bloke to speak to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 You can also look up Bulat steel, developed by Pavel Petrovich Anosov. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewbacca Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I would like to know a recipe using easily obtainable alloys.... quantities by weight and cooking time and temp with cool down process. .... anyone game? Im thinking melt an iron ingot with afew tungston dart tips charcoal powder crushed glass.... I also heard that crushed seashells can be used..... Is there anything i should throw in or should keep out.... can i use steel instead of iron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 I would like to know a recipe using easily obtainable alloys.... quantities by weight and cooking time and temp with cool down process. .... anyone game? Im thinking melt an iron ingot with afew tungston dart tips charcoal powder crushed glass.... I also heard that crushed seashells can be used..... Is there anything i should throw in or should keep out.... can i use steel instead of iron? It won't hurt to try! Just make sure you make exact measurements and keep detailed records. You may become a rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) I recall reading several papers on wootz and bulat. One or two included a recipe, but I am not looking for the link again. I spent about a month following wootz and bulat around the internet. All free information. A massive amount of (non)information worth scratch too. I do not have bookmarks and such anymore as I decided it was not getting me anywhere I wanted to go, at least for now. The starting metals were analyzed or looked up from specification. Cast iron was diluted with known steel as carbon goes, and certain trace elements were added with some pottery glaze ingredients. Again, take detailed notes, weigh materials to the best accuracy possible. Make sure your materials are cleaned to prevent mis-measurement. Be safe, several pounds of molten steel in a cracked crucible is a serious thing! Good luck and have fun. Phil Edited September 4, 2009 by pkrankow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 As I recall, the material comes from the crucible in a donut, is cut halfway through, unrolled like a cinnamon roll and finally drawn out to a useful shape...sounds simple but the actual process appeared to be a great deal of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Found a bookmark!Replication of Wootz Have fun Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonplugger Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 There is an exellent post on paleo planet about a hammer-in held in July. They made a cake of wootz from simple equipment. You can see the post by going to Paleoplanet>metal working>Bladesmithing/knifemaking and search for the post "So. Cal. hammer-in aftergame wrap". It was posted in July. The person that makes wootz is Chris and he can be contacted at tidewaterforge.com. He is a nice guy and very willing to help. He is extremely knowledgable. If you decide to make your own wootz you have a great source of iron ore where you live. There are a lot of gold prospecting clubs in your area. Any one that uses a gold dredge will have buckets of black sand that they will give away after they extract any gold values from it. This is high quality iron ore. It is what the Japanese use to make their swords. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Just make sure they haven't used mercury to extract the gold from the black sand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Ric Furrer is one man its certainly worth speaking to. At a UK forge in he gave a lecture on the subject, and ran a course for making wootz in association with a british bladesmith called Owen Bush, I saw a couple of cakes cooked up. Its certainly a very interesting and involved subject. One of the main challanges is going from the cake to the blade with very careful, multiple thermal cycles and gentle work. There is some good information, and informed experienced posters on Don Foggs forum (mods, sorry to cross forum 'advertise' but its a very specialised subject matter!) Its somthing im going to do in the future, but from everyone ive spoken to who makes it, it is apparent that its a journey that follows a very long, and sometimes very windey road. Im not ready to set off yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm one of the mods over at Paleoplanet. What Chris (Price) did at their So-Cal hammer-in was actually a bloomery smelt of wrought iron; it'd need more processing to become wootz. The bookmark that Phil linked to is a paper written by Greg Obach. He, Jesus Hernandez, Jeff Pringle, Chris Price, Owen Bush, Ric Furrer, and most of the other folks who're crazy enough to make their own steel (a group that I hope to join one of these days) all hang out over at the Bloomers and Buttons forum at Fogg's. Like John said, I don't want to offend anyone by cross-advertising, but this is a very esoteric topic, and that's the only website I've ever found where there are quite a few folks with significant experience in actually doing this stuff -- particularly making wootz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Good point about the mercury, Thomas! I had a gold prospector (and fellow smith -- the same guy who provided the ore for that So-Cal smelt, actually) offer me a bunch of CA magnetite, and I turned him down because I wanted to do it the hard way -- find my own local ore, dig it out, roast it, etc. I'm just dumb like that. Turns out I may actually have given the right answer for entirely different reasons than the ones I was thinking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Wow, funny to find myself being spoken about. Yes, the smelt we did in Laguna was a simple iron smelt, by open reduction (burn charcoal, add ore, get bloom). The product of that smelt could be melted in a crucible with the addition of carbon in order to obtain wootz, and I have had the pleasure of making wootz with Jeff Pringle recently... he's perhaps one of the front-runners of modern applied research in this field, with Ric and Owen and a few other close behind. Matt, I brought my own ore to that smelt. It's magnetite from Minnesota, before it gets balled up into Taconite pellets. According to my source, it's 96% pure ore, which is pretty hard to get. Some of the best "natural" ores, such as the Cranberry rocks and various black sands get you in the 60-70% range... which isn't bad, but you have to put more matierial in the top to get the same iron out of the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 He is a nice guy and very willing to help. He is extremely knowledgable. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 You can drag magnetite out of creeks and some lake sands using a covered magnet. I was part of a bloomery crew for about 10 years and the magnetite sand ore was much nicer to work with than taconite pellets that had had flux added to them for use in a blast furnace instead of a bloomery furnace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Wow, funny to find myself being spoken about. At least we're only saying good things. Matt, I brought my own ore to that smelt. Oops, sorry! I know Eric has a bunch of magnetite, and I guess I just assumed you guys used his. Edited September 21, 2009 by mod07 Language violation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlpierson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I attended a talk/demonstration by Ric Furrer on crucible steel a couple of years ago at Ashoken. As I recall he said that he has about an 80% success making a billet of steel and about a 50% success making it into a blade. Unfortunately the demonstration was one of the 20% but you can see a number of pictures on my Flickr page of the HI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 You can drag magnetite out of creeks and some lake sands using a covered magnet. I was part of a bloomery crew for about 10 years and the magnetite sand ore was much nicer to work with than taconite pellets that had had flux added to them for use in a blast furnace instead of a bloomery furnace. I don't doubt it at all. My stuff is pre-flux, so it's nice pure iron powder. I have cooked taconite pellets directly in a crucible, and it makes an awful mess. I would consider adding a few, crushed up, to a bloomery furnace, but I'd hate to use it exclusively. I'm actually planning a trip to the Cranberry mine soon to load up on a ton or so of their ore. ~70% iron, self-fluxing, and comes out about 1% Carbon, 1% Chrome (from the bound garnets) and almost nothing else... a nice clean alloy. I've also worked with Jesus Hernandez and he prefers to use red Hematite, straight from the pottery store (they use it for glaze) mixed with a little flux. I don't like how fine it is, you end up blowing a lot out of the top of the furnace, but we got good steel with it, so I don't complain too much. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I attended a talk/demonstration by Ric Furrer on crucible steel a couple of years ago at Ashoken. As I recall he said that he has about an 80% success making a billet of steel and about a 50% success making it into a blade. Unfortunately the demonstration was one of the 20% but you can see a number of pictures on my Flickr page of the HI. Which is why anyone selling swords made this way start at several thousand dollars for a bare blade... one has to account for that failure rate. And Ric knows his way around a hunk of steel better than almost anyone else I know... definately in my top 5 list of mentors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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