Ecart Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Hi all. Haven't been around for the past couple of weeks. Computer problems. :mad: Anyway, about 10 years ago I got permission to start tearing down an old store that was built in the late 1800's to early 1900's. I came out of the deal with a lot of heart pine that was mostly bug infested- though some of it was good to use. But I came away with two sets of doors that I am keeping as patterns for doors on the shop that I hope to build one day. With these doors came two bars. They are both pretty thick. I plan to use one of them on the new doors. But the other will be used most likely for knife fittings. I can tell by the way the pieces swell around the holes in the end that they were drifted by a smith somewhere, probably local to the area where I found the store. Anyway, how can I tell if these are wrought iron or not? If anyone is interested, I'll take pics and get them posted pretty soon. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) If you are willing to cut a piece of one of the doors, the easiest way to tell if they are wrought iron is to cut near the end of a bar about half way through, then bend the bar (as if trying to break it at the cut). If it is wrought iron, it will tear beyond the cut (as is illustrated below), and you will see a fibrous texture. If the fibers are very rough, it is a poor grade of wrought iron. The finer the fibers, the more refined (and workable) the wrought iron is. Good Luck.... Edited May 21, 2009 by djhammerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassomeoneelse Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 DJ, that is a really nice picture that shows exactly how someone needs to test for wrought. Ecart, if it is not "refined", please do not let that discourage you in using it for knife fittings. A lot of knifemakers like the wrought iron that is not as refined. It tends to etch easily and you can see the pattern very nicely. I have not personally worked with any highly refined wrought. Good luck and good use of your iron. Hope it turns out to be wrought for you. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob JS Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I encourage you to repeat the same cut and bend test on something that you know is mild steel, and other non wrought metal for comparison. If you want to see a fibre structure you probably will - maybe even convincing yourself that you have found such a high quality peice of wrought that the fibres are very densly packed. - Until you start to wonder why it isnt behaving like wrought. I speak from personal experience - I now know what milds steel and annealed carbon steel look like when tested. You could also search for info on spark testing, also If you are grinding a surface to spark test you may be able to see black strands in the polished surface. Have fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 The spark test is a better way to go. First grind a piece of regular modern mild steel - for a comparison. You should see medium length streamers, with some "twinkling" sparks - and fairly white-ish. Then grind the possible wrought iron. The streamers should be a lot redder and fly out longer. And there should be almost no or none of those twinkling sparks that fly out only a little ways before the twinkle out. The twinkling sparks are the carbon in the metal burning. Wrought iron would have very little of it. If the metal bar has been aged/rusted a bunch, you can then start to see some of that fibrous structure - like wood grain. Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecart Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Thanks for the answers guys. Tomorrow I'll have to decide which of the bars to sacrifice. One is shorter than the other so I need to determine the size of the doors that will be on my new shop. But only cutting an inch or grinding a small piece of the stuff won't make me lose the whole bar. Maybe tomorrow I can tell you the results! I'm pretty excited about finding out what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Thanks Mike and DJ for this info. I was at a farm sale a week ago an bought an old hay rake pretty complete except that the wood parts were all rotted away. I am pretty sure that I got a few hundred pounds of wrought there... now I can check it. I also bought a couple boxes of hammer heads which included a pair of set hammers and about thirty nice hammers altogether (plus some junkers) for sixty bucks. The hay rake with extra tine sets (about 75 tines altogether) set me back a whole $45.00!! There was a lot of stuff to sell and few eager buyers. I am thinking that the hay rake tines will make good tines for broadforks for gardening if I straighten them slightly cold. Does this sound like a good plan for using them. I have had little joy working with wrought iron so far... it seems crumbly and frays on the ends of pointy tapers at least if I am right about the stuff I have worked with so far. I will test in the future and then does ANYONE have suggestions for what to do with it and how to get joyful when I work it in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Fraying and crumbling is a sign you're working it too cold. On the other hand if it does fray it's easy to weld back together, just take it to a welding heat and gently tap it all back. You need to work wrought at high yellow heat to welding heat or it falls apart on you. Another thing are the grades of wrought from muck bar to triple wrought. The lower the grade the less resistant to cold forging it is. "Cold short" is the term. The rake tines are probably spring tempered and aren't going to straighten . . . Well, stay straightened, cold. Good score at the sale. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecart Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Well, didn't spend enough time at home today to check out the bars. But we're not going anywhere this weekend and I plan to spend a good deal of time out at the forge. Though that time could mostly be spent laying out the floor plan of the smithy, barring any weather events, the forge WILL BE lit at some point. I suddenly have incentive for getting out a few knives and things. But that's a topic for another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Thanks Frosty; I'll remember to heat the Wrought iron hotter in the future! I may be able to work with the rake tines as they are because a little curve is good for a broadfork. The tines are long enough to get at least two broadfork tines from each. I could maybe get three if I heat and straighten the loop ends (then re heat treat of course). They oughta make good fish gig spikes too. I am wanting to make some of an old style that uses a socket with a shaft that has been slit and drifted to a rectangular eye and then you insert two U shaped prong sets (one narrow and one wider) and secure them with a wedge (iron wedge). I think the idea was that you could replace or repair the spikes more easily and the socket would always be reusable. I'd have to heat them and forge a barb and bend and then heat treat again for that... still seems like they'd be a whole lot simpler than starting with a leaf spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecart Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I think it's wrought! I cut it with the angle grinder. The long streamers found their way down onto my sandalled foot. . . Okay that was dumb. I had ear plugs and goggles on, but was wearing shorts and sandals. That was soon remedied. Anyway, there were no sparklers indicating carbon. After cutting a little more than half through, I flipped it around in the vise and bent it. Looking at the bend, it tore past the cut and was very fiberous. If I can work out some issues with Picasa, I'll try to get pics and post them tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I have seen several posts asking for help identifying wrought iron. The photo at the start of this thread is a pretty good picture of wrought; maybe we can get some side by side photos of wrought, mild steel and cast iron and post it as a Sticky. It would help a lot of folks. In fact, photos of the spark test would help although getting good pics would be hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecart Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 That would be a great idea. Just the pics given in this thread are pretty helpful to me. So yeah, if there were the pics in a sticky like you mentioned, it would be a big help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 From "Formulas for Profit", Bennett, copyright 1939, 4th printing "To identify iron from steel" "Mix 5 drops nitric acid with 10 drops H2O", (remember acid into water *NEVER* water into acid),"File a clean spot and place a drop on it. If it is steel it will turn black immediatly. If it is wrought iron or malleable iron it will stay bright for a considerable length of time." Use at your own risk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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