intro

[River-Gazer]

hello.

I'm new to working steel, but im well researched. (bear with me) making sure i fix the grain through working it, the only material i have to work with right now is cast iron, so ill be starting out making thin clay-tempered knives.
I'd re-pour the cast iron to fix the grain, but the 1400c tempurate would probably melt the concrete walls of the forge i'll have in a day or two.

At least for now, ill be using a bottom air-fed wood-fueled forge. If i need to, ill set up something to pre-hear the air the increase the tempurature, but ill need clay-based forge walls before i do that.

i someday want to make a non-fold clay-tempered steel tachi out of 2% carbon, 30% nickle, 20% mangenese silicon steel. Would be indestructable and quite shock resistant, but i have to use old cast iron weightlifting equipting for both an anvil and forging materials 'cuz i dont have any money.

Well, at least 2- 2.5% carbon steel will give me good practice in using easier materials. Will take a careful tempurate balance (at about yellow-white to yellow depending on whether im rough-working or finishing, in case ya think im crazy). 'least ill have a good straight razor and carving knives.

Well, i guess i am crazy, but not the way your thinking

I look forward to chat and such.

[FredlyFX]

Welcome River-Gazer.

It doesn't take money to find scrap steel all over the place. Walk along the road and keep your eyes open. Ask friends if they have any old steel laying around. Tell every one of your friends and neighbors that you are looking for scrap steel, and you would be suprised at what you get handed to you.

I would think that almost any scrap steel would be better than wasting your time trying to work that cast iron.

Just my .02

[River-Gazer]

ill work with some of the other steel lying around my house. Some of the steel around my house seems to have mangenese in it now that i think of it, but ill need it to make a better set of tongs and a forge axe for splitting blocks. Good 17 pounds of steel for brgining tools.

Though i still want to see if cast iron's grain can be worked into something useful through drawing it out.

I plan to get skilled enough to do clay tempering half-decently and plan to make combat-grade swords. Also hard knives. Any money in that?

[River-Gazer]

i just realized something. judging my the color of the rust, how slow it rusts and the rigidity of it, i think that i have 17 pounds of high-carbon mangenese steel. What a great starting material. i can bother to spend the time to make quality. *seated happy dance*
Maybe with practice on tempering i could give a shot at a clay-tempered tachi. Need to find out how much edge to expose, 'cuz im not sure how much mangenese is in it. Felt liek 10%, but i cnat be sure.

[irnsrgn]

River Gazer,

Sir, I have put the question to myself wondering what material you have been reading. It must be some other text than what I have read and the information is contrary to what I have learned in my 56 years of blacksmithing.

To me CAST IRON is just a notch above pig iron and has such a high carbon content that is unworkable other than machining. It is called CAST IRON for a reason, that is the only way it can be used as a material as it has so much carbon that it is unforgable.

Cast Iron in larger castings is a good cheap way to construct larger pieces. But, in thin sections it is most fragile and even a slight bump can fracture it.
It will not hold an edge although early on before man knew how to make decent steel it was used for plow shares with a chilled edge to make the grain structure somewhat suitable as a cutting edge.

Hot Cast Iron immersed in water will yield many small pieces, and is rather explosive in nature.

Please I am curious as to where you got your information as .35 % is considere the starting of High Carbon Steel and coil springs are at the upper limit of good usable steel at .95% carbon content.

Just Curious

[River-Gazer]

irnsrgn,

I must tlak on grain of cast iron, but after the following

my understanding of steel is related to the japanese style of working it. Concideration to grain, multi-alloying (the super-swords of old japan were alloyed with many materials and some could cut through a sun (aprox 1.3") of wrought iron without a visible dent or chip, though the test for simply exelent swords, rahter than legendary was a sun of copper.
The japanese, because of how they worked the grain, had extremely pure steels, often introduced silicon into the steels (i may not be right, but i beleive silicon may form carbides at a tempurature below what iron does. below red hot. if it does, the steel becomes dark), sometimes used damacles steel... all this added up, along with their clay tempering technique allowed them to use very high carbon steels, well above 1095.
To work the extremely high carbons, even as high as into the low cast iron ranges, you just need alot of heat and to maintain it at a tempurature give-or-take 50F, about yellow-white.
As for hardening the steel... besides the well-worked grain allowed a great increase in toughness and flexibility, the clay tempering technique bares only about 1/16 or 5 rin of the edge and the rest is covered with a highly insulative clay, carbon dust and high silicon earth mixture, which, along with burning rice straw in the forge, introduces silicon into the blade. They also tempered it in warm oil. In the end, this gave about 1/4 to 1/5" of har edge and the body of the blade was soft, as if it were annealed, though the 2 or so % carbon allowed elasticity in the soft steel. As a note, though i have to test out how to get Si carbides to form instead of Fe carbides, and get the balance right if i cant find out the compound, silicon carbides are extremely shock resistant, in spite of silicon's brittle softness.

I plan to discuss how one might be able to make their own steels on another thread, having done the math and science to go along with the idea, but 1 Mn,
2 Ni, 3 - 5 Cr, 1.5 - 2 C and a not yet calculated percentage of silicon would make a hard and remarkably tough steel, hardened in warm oil and tempered to yellow (if my theory that Si carbides form sub-red hot, yellow is as high as i chance). Without clay tempering, it would not be suitable as blade steel, but if it's Si carbides that form, you likely could harden it in water. Also easily worked at white-yellow

every degree you heat air up to before you put in in coal will increase a forges heat by 92% of the increase, and probably 955 with wood. Preheat the air to 1200 - 1500 F going into a deep coal forge, and in a fired-clay pot or enameled carbonless moly-steel pot you could make your own 1+ caron steels and alloy them well. thats what im working towards. steel is expensive and made from ridiculously poor quality. My best steel could be like damacles, with a few percent nickle.

I'm gonna start a thread on japanese styles of metal working if there isnt one. i hope someone knows some about it, cus though i have researched a bit, i've got cetain things which im not entirely sure about.

as a note, that 25 lb weight i was hammering on was made of pig iron. Since i use a ten pound sledge smithing, i shattered it easily, despite it was on the soft dirt (make hammering real slow). using a tie plate now. not big, but stronger than anvil iron. mangenese alloyed. Eventaly i'll cast a 100 - 200 lb strike plate and make a 1 carbon, ~2 nickle, ~1Mn, 5 crome 50 lb lop-sided sledge, as going along (loosly) with japanese style.

I'm going to be a steel worker and ronin musha with a minimum 4 shaku blade that can cut copper without a visible dent or chip... someday.

[River-Gazer]

I forgot to mention a few things.

That bar of steel i have is actualy 1-2% mangenese, not 10%. Havent been around enough tool steel to be able to sense it's content acurately.

Secondly, the only reasoning i can come up with for this sense i have is that is some sort of 6th sense. I know metal even when it's blackened. it's vanadium, moly, nitrogen, sulper, phosphorous, crome, nickle and im getting used to mangenese. Rough melting tmepurature, toughness, tempering properties. i look at silicon carbide metal-grade sand paper and i sense Si carbide's toughness and im pretty sure low hardening tempurature. I look at plastics and i know their properties and tempurature resistance. I know various ceramics in sand. how much organic matter, how much alumina, silica, limestone, whatever that yellow stone is... Materials i've been around in purer forms. i dont study it with my eyes or the other 4 senses, though it's still possible to do so. i sense and know it when i simply shouldnt if it were not some form of psychic i've always lived with.
Relatedly, as i think i will make my signature, 'im crazy, but not the way you're thinking'
Whichever crazy you think i am, this is beside the point.

Finaly, ive got to make a decently strong strike plate for a japanese-style 50ish pound lop-sided sledge. at either 10% mangenese or about 15% nickle, steel can no longer form carbides. Therefore, i will, after i get the air heating rig going, cast a strike plate (like an anvil, but featureless) with alot of ni-crome car bumper added to it, and throw it into water as soon as it become solid. Since it wont form carbides, it shouldnt explode, and should have a great deal of elasticity and toughness due to the content of nickle and crome. I'll add mangenese if i can. I could have one only 100ish lbs that cant be broken by a 50 pound japanese sledge. It will have properties similar to the soft part of the katana.

---------------
I'm crazy, but not in that way.

[Ten Hammers]

May the force be with you.

[bbb]

River grazer, Good luck on your endeavors, my swords typically can cut machine gun barrels cleanly. I use only meteorite ore that I refine using charcoal and buffalo chips. Quench in warm water with a few drops of blood from a teenage virgin, garlic, and habanero extract.



Admin Edit:
For those new to blade making, or are consider trying the above process, this is only a myth.

[Dodge]

I am in awe!

[irnsrgn]

bbb I think you took Woodies story on the magical sword too seriously. http://www.iforgeiron.com/Story/S001magical_sword.shtml

[jimmy seale]

I do hope you aren't allergic to failure! Seem's like a lot of work to do and not get the results you want. J

[sandpile]

RIVER-GAZER--Me thinks you have kissed the 'BLARNTY STONE'. Having ago at the humorus side of life. Grin

Chuck

[Archie Zietman]

Dear Rivergazer,

Link removed at the request of anvilfire
please please please read "sword making generation X" and "swords of iron swords of steel" I think these will help you get a far better and more...realistic grounding in bladesmithing.
I am sorry to be so blunt, but what you have posted regarding metallurgy seems not to make sense at all and is a bit...well, if you are well researched, you are well researched in Conan the Barbarian and such Hollywood film's processese of swordmaking which are not in any way how iron/steel swords are or were actually made, the way you are going now, I don't think you will end up with successful blades, but a lot of cast iron bits in the quench tub.

[JPH]

Hello:

I was turned onto the thread by someone who shall remain nameless....

ROFL..Methinks I smell a troll??

ROFL...ROFLMAOPIMP....

"sensing" the content of steel....oh how I WISH that was so...man that sure would make all our lives a whole lot easier...

On the Meteorite front... probably having made more blades from this stuff than anyone else alive today all I can say is it's NOT buffalo chips, it's cattle chips...namely from the male bovine and well all know what that is called!!

Ok now seriously someone is going to read this and take it as gospel and well, that wouldn't be right...and of course I will somehow be blamed and have all sorts of stuff atributed to me that I never said...sigh...

There are so many misconceptions and misinformation on this guy's posts that he has got to be pulling something, some sort of scam.. I smell a rat..

And what does Damocles have to do with this??? Other than his sword?? Sheesh..

JPH

[bbb]

We, including myself, should be ashamed of ourselves. This young feller did not ask for advice, merely starting talking about his ideas, gleaned from several sources. Immediately we started trying to put him straight, when he hadn't asked for help. We are all entitled to our opinions, right or wrong, and no one should put us down for them. Some folks have laughed about him on other forums, kind of like picking on the one strange kid during recess in school. I ,for one, will refrain from putting him, or other young blokes, down, and will endeavor to provide whatever help I can, but only after they ask for it. I urge others to do the same.

[Dodge]

You are absolutely right, bbb. After all, that is what this forum is all about. My apologies to River-Gazer.

[FredlyFX]

So bbb, I'm curious, how much time should we waste on him when he starts coming back asking questions about how to forge his cast iron into sword steel? If none of us had said a thing to him we would have seen who knows how many questions on the forum later as he tried to implement his impossible plans.

I totally understand your position, and normally I would agree, but in this case he was so far off the track that it seems to me we do him a disservice if we allow him to continue without at least trying to help. Although some of it was done pretty tounge in cheek, he was given links to some really great resources. If he actually takes the time to read them and learn, instead of going by stuff he has seen in movies, then he may actually be able to forge something useful one day. If he digs his heels in and refuses to learn then he will be plauged by years of frustration.

River-Gazer, making swords is pretty much the top of the blacksmithing trade. It is like being a mechanic on formula one race cars. You don't start off on race cars, you work up to it. You don't show up at the track and say, "I want to be a race car mechanic cuz I been watching it on ESPN, and I think I got it down." You work for years perfecting your skills. This is the same thing. Hammer control, metalurgy, fire control and numerous other things all come into play. None of these are touched on in any significant way in any movie. Personally, I love the Highlander movies and series. I own all of them, but now that I have been smithing for a few years I know just how out of touch all the sword making stuff is in those movies. Still entertaining, but not accurate. I hope you consider the advice you have been given here and really take the time to learn this trade. It is a wonderful skill, and if you work hard at it, then some day you will be able to make a sword that you can be proud of, and will not be a danger to you and others.

Good luck with it.

[bbb]

Fred, read his post, he did not ask for any help. When he does, we can either answer him or ignore him. When I was in college, this cute young thing asked the prof a question (trig), (he was used to teaching differential calculus). He put her down, I immediately told him that I thought it was a fair question, and would like an answer myself. We got our answer, and the class got better. Patience is the best teacher, knowledge cannot be achieved until it is sought. I teach apprentice electricians, but until they are ready to learn, they won't.

[Ed Thomas]

There is always a delicate balance here. I feel like we should always encourage people to post and be comfortable sharing where they are without feeling competitive or inadequate.

However, another aspect of having a public forum is that it does become an online reference for people seeking information. Since there really is very little meaningful blacksmithing material on the internet (compared to, say, sports, politics, religion or sex) this site will almost certainly show up on an ordinary google search for help in blacksmithing.

So I think that if we are going to participate at all, we do have an obligation to carefully and considerately respond to posts we feel are in error or misleading. Not to be "right", but if we don't, then our silence could be construed as endorsing the information in the post.

If the information isn't important, no big deal. But in this case, I think the replies were valuable and I hope everyone, especially River-gazer, benefits... even though he didn't specifically ask for help.

bbb: You didn't specify the gender of the teenage virgin. Does it matter???

[Mr Smith]

Guys,

In all honesty, I think the best we can do is offer our advice. I don't see anything wrong with offering suggestions, whether they are solicited or not, if it might be that a few words will save some hours of frustration, perhaps even injury.

It seems to me, on the subject of cast iron, he's using what materials he has. "Scrounging" is not always as easy for our younger smiths, who don't have their own transportation. I can imagine how my folks would have reacted, back in the day, if I asked for a lift home with what appears to be someone else's junk!
Remember the old saying "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!"

If I have told him I don't recommend it, and told him how *I* would go about it, that's where my involvement stops, unless he chooses to listen.

I say best of luck to him. He'll either learn the hard way, or not at all, but he'll be learning something . There's still plenty time for him to take up basketweaving.

That's my $0.02 (AUD)

[Ten Hammers]

I personally feel no guilt and think that Dr Jim said it well ( as did Junior ). I guess I just look at it this way. This is a very friendly place and it is also a place to learn and contribute.

When we start off knowing before we really know (not pickin' on you River ) we must expect results. Now that the smoke has cleared, I really wish you would ask a few questions River and let us know where you want to go. You have WORLD CLASS advice at your disposal here ( and that ain't me lol ). I can tell you what this place is NOT. Some internet "I wish I was a real blacksmith " place. You can have absolute confidence in advice given here (for a large part). If bad advice IS given, you can bet that somebody will square it away pretty quick. Welcome aboard and belly up to the fire.

Steve ( Ten Hammers ) O' Grady

[JPH]

Hello:

I for one do not see anything wrong in trying to end the all too common misconceptions that surround smithing, especially when it comes to things that cut.. OK I fully realise that this is a very steep uphill battle but I for one simply cannot sit by while folks repeat misinformation and downright falsehoods...

Now in this particular case..as I said before...I think this was/is a troll situation..a 50# sledge hammer?? I do not know any man alive who could use one and this is coming from a man who swings a 8# hammer every day...(and I can prove that fact..). Look at what this person has been saying and well, it's about as far off base as anyone could ever get!! "Voo-doo metallurgy"..knowing what a steel contains by simply feeling/sensing it?? Oh please....Now I have heard some pretty wild claims, but this is one of the wildest. OK I WISH it was possible as it sure could simplify alot of what we do...but no..never happen..

On the cast iron..I have forged it.it can be done if done very carefully and using some really weird techniques.....I have also pattern welded with stellite and I will never do either one again...EVER...but it's not something the neophyte can do..believe me.

There is simply so much plain old BS out there about this stuff that it's everywhere..I for one do not want to see this site drawn down to THAT "level" as so many other have..Glenn and all the others have worked far too hard on this site for me to just sit here and watch that happen.... Swords do not cut through gun barrels (I know where that got started by the way...the late Bon Engnath and I tracked that one down) nor were they "folded 1000 times" ether...So much wrong information is taken as fact that when the truth is finally found, no one believes it, no matter how much you try...Sigh...

No, this River Gazer did not "ask" for input or advise but by posting such comments as he did,but, he most certainly "invited" it...I still think he/she is a troll or trying to start/scam something...

JPH

[River-Gazer]

Hello. I apollagize for the previous.I managed to set up a forge with stove pipe, foundation block, a brake drum and a 6.5 horse shop vac i had to purchese since the ancient one i had burnt out. I have managed to get some time into the forge.

Umm... im not trying to support the claims i made, but as notes i wish to say, on highlander, no sane man hammers what looked like a flattened steel bar, carburizing the whole way, into a katana. It would almost be quicker to set up the whole tradtional thing.

hmm... i've became alot less insane having found some good conversation to level me out. *jokative caffine twitch* It's realy been a life hobby to discuss all sorts of theroretics, which is mostly what this remotely revolves around.

ummm... nom sorry, the hammers were not fifty, but if you follow this link, i believe thats somewehre in the 20# region
http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/fujiyasu/swordmk3.html

Yeah... i wont bring up 6th sense again.

Ummm... i've found a great source of metal is RR rail plate. 5- 8 lb peice of nromalized steel which seems alloy and above 1% carbon, nad normalized for toughness. unfortunately, my only one is an 'anvil', though is very strong. all my works been doin' is cleaning of the rust, and i made sure to test it's strengh, for long-term purposed, by seeing if it will withstand a sledge blow. i dont use sledge on the anvil, but i know it's not going to break from a normal hammer.

It's takes a long time to discuss the sorces for knowedge, and i think natural selection is a very good thing, so, if im foolish and die from what i do, despite precausions i take, it's little loss, and if i pull something off, woot. Either way, ya all benafit. One as ideas, one is the termination or disconnection from a total moron.

morbidly upbeat?

[sandpile]

RIVER-GAZER. First off we have no desire to disconect from you .
Secondly-- You need to go to BOB ENGATHS tutorials and DON FOGGS same. A pleasant alternate route would be to purchase Dr. JIM'S books and bone-up on them. These two sites, and books will stop all your misconceptions and get you started on a successful blade-making trip. Could last a liftime if pursued in the proper sequence.

Good luck

Chuck