urnesBeast Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 In the interest of saving someone else the trouble, here is a forge that worked for me for exactly 26 firings of 2 to 8 hours each, averaging about 3. For whatever reason, I have fallen in love with the idea of using refractory cement to cast my own firepot. I think I like the idea of doing it myself, and I do not have access to the metal working items needed to make my own firepot. I do not like the idea of spending $200 plus for a firepot, and still not having a table to put it in. After looking around at all the designs, I was against the brake drum forge, it seemed to be not the right shape for a forge. The just plain dirt in a trash can did not strike me as a good idea. Here is what I did, and why it failed. Went and bought a bag of refractory cement. This stuff is rated for 1800 degrees and 10,000 cycles. They use it for crematoriums, it is not home depot cement that is going to spalt on you, the price of $40 a bag reflects that. I made a form out of 2x4, 18"x18"x10.5" I got a 3/4 pipe through the bottom of the form and filled it. I used a large wooden nut to use as the mold for the firepot. I did not reinforce it with rebar or anything. It was still cold out, so I let it sit inside for a day or two to cure, then moved it outside into the smithy, leaving an incadesent light right on top of it for a few days to cure. By the time I was ready a few days later to get the nut out and start a small wood fire to cure it, the nut was stuck in very well. It was a wooden nut, I needed a wood fire. First problem solved. I burned the thing out. Other than the fact that I did not have a chimney yet, this was a fine plan. I now have a cured cement firepot. I order a chimney made to Uri Hofi's specs. It is the side draft. I install it. It is a thing of beauty. I build a table to hold up my heavy fire pot. I make a very bad assumption that 2x4s will work. I also decide to leave the form around the firepot, because, "what the hell" right? Guys like Frosty are laughing (with me) because they know what is going to happen on the first marathon session of forging... I make the table out of patio brick, supported by the 2x4 table. Table is 54"x36" First firing: It works, the fire pot is WAY too deep. Like 6 inches radius spherical hole. It takes a lot of coal to go in there and the sweet spot of the fire is too low. The air pipe is too small. It does make fire, it lit the first time, and the chimney draws so well my hammer got sucked into the updraft and I had to get it out of my neighbors yard. Things go well for a while with short sessions. I decide the pot is too big. I break up a fire brick, get some clay from the craft store, build or the pot to three inches deep. Fire up. This solves the shape problem, but now clinker sticks to the clay. It never stuck to the refractory cement. Marathon session: On one of the first five hour sessions, where I really had the fire humping the whole time, I notice smoke coming from under the table. It is going up the chimney, nothing is on fire. I ignore. This happens again, but more so on an eight hour session. It keeps smoldering. I tear the table off, and see my form is now made of charcoal. I don't burn charcoal, I burn coal. This is of moderate concern to me. I tear off enough of the form to stop this, and hope for the best. This keeps happening until all the form is off, but pretty much any wood that was within 4 inches of the firepot has charcoaled to the point of not being structurally sound. I knew this was not sustainable, I was just hoping to get through to my show on the 25th (two weeks), then rebuild. Final Failure: With the form no longer there, I notice smoke much sooner and it is not going up the chimney. I tear the table apart again, this time the fire pot has broken into three pieces. See photos for the broken pot, burned table, and what was left of the form (sitting in my slack tub to extinguish it) What I will do next time: If I go with a cast firepot, I am going to build an all brick enclosure. I will make the firepot separate entity in the forge so that it can be replaced easily. I think the refractory cement is a win. It does not collect clinker, does not spalt. If it is made thick enough, supported correctly, is reinforced with rebar, I think it can make a very long lived and happy firepot. Key words for people that are searching forge design cement clay refractory cement fire pot firepot chimney side draft DIY cheap forge hairdryer blower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Call Roger Lorrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 Call Roger Lorrance. I gather he makes firepots, but Google does not know how to find him... Any help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Roger Lorrance currently makes the best fire pot availiable in this country for the best price. He is from Illinois. I could not find his information at this moment, but I'll keep looking. I know there are others out there that have his contact info. He has been mentioned on this site before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 My first coal forge was clay mud mixed with vermiculite with 3/8 steel fire grate. I put it the whole mess in a rusted out charcoal grill and it worked just fine. ( no wood any place:D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Lorance Forge and Castings (Roger Lorance) 16412 E. Illinois 9 Highway, Canton, IL 61520. TEL: (309) 647-9242 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I have a lorance fire pot and have yet to build a table for it.... Of all the fire pots I've seen, this IS THE BEST Period! Very heavy casting and nicely made. My only complaint is the clinker breaker,it is a little weak compaired to the fire pot...No mind, its fabricated... When and if it fails, I'll make a new one:) Realy Glad all you burned was the table and misc. bits....No structure! Sometimes taking the cheap DIY road can be a real hazard, glad you came out with good knowlage and no major loss. Sometimes that kind of experiance can be very expensive:o If you still (I don't recomend it) want a refractory fire pot, use 1/8" wire 4"x4" or smaller mesh, rebar is way to big. Thanks Brian for the phone number.. I've been looking for him:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I am going to have to reiterate. The Lorance fire pot is the best out there! I've used them all, every thing from GE and Centaur to the older Buffalo's and some I don't know the names of and some homemade ones. I use my forge almost every day, and I've gone through several fire pots in my career. When it is time to replace this one, I guarantee you I'll get a Lorance fire pot. Most of you would never have to replace your fire pots in your lifetime, but I use petroleum coke quite a bit. PetCoke will eat up your fire pot because it is so clean and will never make any clinkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Bly Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Does he have a catalog or website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I'm not laughing at or with you, I'm bummed it didn't work better but more relieved it didn't burn your place down. There's a solution to the old, "I don't have the right tools" situation, college extension courses. A lot of guys I know take college shop night classes just for access to the equipment and expert advice. One fellow I know has been doing it for about 20 years now. funny thing is he still has no idea how to properly use a lathe. Anyway, if there are any night metal shop classes available you'd have access to welders, cutters, torches, etc. etc. and someone to show you how to use it all. It's money well spent. On the refractory fire pot front. Wire mesh and an angle iron frame would solve the situation. OR you could cast your fire pot in a SS mixing bowl as a break proof container. Brian, how much did you give for your Lorance fire pot? If you don't mind me asking. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) I'm not laughing at or with you, I'm bummed it didn't work better but more relieved it didn't burn your place down. Frosty Funny you should say that, see my new thread:http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/what-do-when-your-smithy-burns-down-11145/ To save the suspense, no one was hurt. Edited April 16, 2009 by urnesBeast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Frosty, my last fire pot cost me $250 delivered to my door in S. Calif. That was several years ago. I just tried to call the number Karen got off the Internet and it was no longer in service. I'll try and get his current info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I made the firepot for my most used solid fuel forge and the "tools" I needed was a $15 angle grinder from HF. Used the axle cover from a banjo rear end; bought two of them made into jackstands for $3 20 years ago and have never needed the other one yet---including a lot of billet welding. Pretty much all that was needed to do was to grind out a couple of ridges on the inside and pop the bearing out and grind smooth where it sat. Using the angle grinder you can make a hole in the side for the air supply to enter and a hose clamp and some scrap and you would have the cleanout covered. I use replacable grated made from expanded metal or cast iron drain grates---whatever I find for free or cheap. Every time I see someone write about how they can't afford something or don't have specialized tools to make it and then go off and spend more money doing stranger stuff I get very puzzled. Learning to design for the tools and processes you have/know is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Nakkela Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hey, Brian Brazeal: Tell more about petcoke. I have tried to burn it but it just blows all over the place. What are your methods? I understand that if you are near an oil refinery the stuff is dirt cheap. Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Petroleum coke comes in many different grades. The best that I have had was what they call "sponge coke". It looks lie a sponge. When I was in the Ukraine, that is what they were using also. It sounds like you had alot of fines in what you were trying to use. I would always screen the coke I was getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Funny you should say that, see my new thread:http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/what-do-when-your-smithy-burns-down-11145/ To save the suspense, no one was hurt. Whatever the cause do NOT tell the insurance company your home made forge might have started it! I'm seriously bummed for you. Thanks Brian. A couple of our club members have expressed interest in a "real" fire pot and it'd be good to have something for them. My coal forge has a home made refractory fire pot on a steel table. More of a duck's nest with fire bricks to custom form the "pot". The irony does not escape me. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I just got off the phone with Roger Lorance. What a nice guy! He runs around with Clifton Ralf [sp?]. He remembered my brother and I from back when I was running around with Tom Clark. Anyway, Roger is going to be sending me a flyer of his products, and when I get it, I will pass it on. He has fire pots, mandrel cones, and swage blocks at very reasonable prices, and if a group can get together to make a large order, the price gets even better because of shipping costs. Roger Lorance: 309-475-9012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokshasa Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 awsome, cant wait to see that flyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Excellent! Thanks, Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Thanks for posting this urnesBeast as I've had some similar thoughts about forge building. I haven't found anything suitable for a fire pot myself yet and had been considering refractory. I also don't have a welder at home but can join wood pretty good for stands etc! I wish you luck with the next forge and if it works out better please let us know! Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brimson Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I just purchased a new firepot from the Kahne's Blacksmith Depot. My instructor has been using them for quite a while and has never had to replace one. The walls on them are a minimum 1" thick so they will handle burning coke well. the cost is currently $315 plus shipping including a 4" tuyere and a clinker breaker. I just completed the new table frame for it. I used 1" square ss tubing for the frame and floored it with a sheet of 5/16 mild steel. I made the table 30" x 38" outside dimensions with 3" high sides. The left side of the table has a removable end plate and as time and finances permit a side draft hood will be mounted on that side. I decided to go with an electric blower instead of a hand cranker and picked up a Dayton 9" high pressure direct drive blower off of eBay that puts out 273cfm. I haven't totaled up everything yet, but I imagine by the time its finished I'll have about $550-600 in it. If you live in the Southeast you should come to the Madison Conference May 14-16. There will be a lot of tailgate stuff for sale and you can generally pick some decent stuff up pretty cheap. Good luck, JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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