Trav3500 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hey once again. I'm having trouble forge welding. I haven't ever forge welded, and i'm still new to the very idea of blacksmithing. I read about how to do it, studied the pics then went out to try my luck, but to no avail. One thing that i was really confused about, i couldn't find any pics, is that you have to have a different type of forge fire. I read it had to be deeper than a regular fire by about 3 to 4in. and make kind've a oven. Unfortunately the only forge i have is a super shallow portable forge, which makes deep an issue. I was wondering if anybody had any pics of there coal forge welding fires or somewhere were i could find some. Is it possible(without years of experience) to weld in a forge that small and shallow? Do i need to give the metal a long time to heat up? or can i heat it at a regular pace? Thanks, Travis Also, if it's an oven type shape, how would i weld a piece of sheet metal? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) when you heat the metal does it get yellow hot and give off tiny sparks........that is the max temp range you will need you could add a few firebricks to help contain the heat on three sides. the slow heat is to ensure the interior of the stack is as hot as the outside thinking pattern welding here for blades Edited April 1, 2009 by johnptc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 You need at minimum 2-3 inches of coke or charcoal underneath the metal to be welded or too much oxygen/air will be getting to your steel. Too much oxygen cause the metal to oxidize and makes it very difficult to weld. A normal blower pace is probably right-not knowing what your normal is. You don't want to heat it really slowly or really fast. The first time get it to the point where you are just starting to see bright sparkles going up then move extremely quickly as you take it to the anvil and start using very fast light hits on it. As soon as the metal stops looking wet, when it ceases to be at a welding heat, put it back in the fire. Without flux, welding when the steel is just starting to throw a few sparks works great and will give you a good idea of the temperature range. I like to show people how to weld without flux first because I think it gives a little better idea of how the steel works. When using flux, glance at the metal and when it starts looking wet, when the surface of the steel looks like it is starting to flow around in the fire you can take it out and weld. You need to have all your tools ready when the steel is. The hammer should hit the metal at almost the same time the metal hits the anvil, and it should only take you a split second to move it from in the forge to the anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I will always remmeber the time many, many years ago, Dueing my Farrier training, the teacher and a couple of us youngtesters were out at somebodies place shoeing some horses, we were hot shoeing an I was on the forge, it was a hand windner type, so I,m crankin this handle on this tiny forge, and I wasn,t paying attention to the shoes in the forge, next thing you know the teacher (old Ray) says "what the xxxx are you doing", I turn and look, as the shoes were melting and sparks coming off them, knowing Ray they would have been handmade shoes, oops. So even a small forge can melt steel. Just load it with coal and blast it with heaps of air, if you can,t melt steel doing that you may have a problem with something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keppler Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 My suit case like forge can easily get up to welding heat with no fire pit at all. I just mound up the coke over the blast so that i have a small hill and put the steel right in the middle of the hill and mound up a little more over the top. It easily can get sparkling hot the only problem is you will likely have to re-mound your hill each time because removing the steel and putting it back into the mound tends to break it up a bit. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASMITH Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Alwin is correct in saying you need 2 or 3 inches of coal or coke between the air inlet of your pot and the steel. You need the coal to consume as much oxygen as possible to minimize scale on the steel for one thing and also provide the temp required to get to welding heat. The 'oven like' effect you have seen in the pictures is not really accurate. You DO NOT want an open area inside the mound of coal as this will allow outside air to reach your steel causing severe oxidation (scale) on your steel. The steel should be buried in the coal and your air blast should be controlled to bring the fire up to heat and a steady rate. The idea of waiting for sparks to appear is not the best method of determining welding heat. The sparks you see are actually coming from your steel as it starts to burn. Burning steel is at the point just before melting and is too hot for welding. Also burn't steel cannot be used for any purpose, nor can it be repaired except by melting it down again. Many beginners use the spark type of indicator to get an idea of the color of the steel at those temp and if it is just 1 or 2 sparks you observe (not fourth of July display) you can still probably get a weld from the steel although it would not be reliable enough to use in the case of a lifting device or a critical use. It can however teach you to learn correct appearance of steel for welding just before the burning point and you will be able to make strong clean welds. Don't get discouraged in your attempts to weld. It takes time and patience, and if you 'WATCH' your steel closely when trying to weld it will soon become second nature and you will soon be welding with the best of them. Keep going and practice, practice, practice. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 you can use borax to protect the steel and flux the weld:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Sparking is too hot for high carbon steels as they will weld below sparking temps. A couple of fire bricks can help you mound up a fire higher without having to fill the entire bed of the forge to the brim. You can forge weld with real charcoal, (not briquettes!), as was done for the first thousand or so years of the iron age and is still done for making traditional japanese swords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 here is a loose brick oven built over the fire pot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 In a shallow type fire I find that a steady crank on a hand blower is very effective. It brings the temperature up steadily and does not blow too much air into the fire so you get the oxidising layer around your job. Make sure you have a good layer of burning, coked coal under your job and heap some more over the top (it has to be coked coal, not green coal) then steadily crank and you will see the fire come up through the pile and your job will be ready to weld in a matter of minutes. Then its quick, quick, quick. Practice the moves bofore heating the job and lay out your hammer and tongs before getting the job in the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchmancreek Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 When I used a shallow rivet forge I used fire bricks to get more depth to the fire and was able to weld. Fire bricks are handy to have around for these types of "build ups". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav3500 Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 K, thanks for all the info, this helps bunches. I had read that it was easy to weld but it just wasn't working. So, now that i'm armed with a bag full of tips and a sip of confidence, I'm ready to tackle it again, thanks Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 what can you use as flux? i am also a newbie too, so i just would like to know how to forge weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 what can you use as flux? i am also a newbie too, so i just would like to know how to forge weld. borax is fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 thanks. will a wood fire with a bed of coals 6in deep get hot enough for forge welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 You can forge weld in a candle flame if the pieces are small enough. Please give enough data that we can answer the question. I can forge weld certain things in a 6" deep bed of real chunk charcoal in my forge, depth of wood burning doesn't count for anything. Not knowing your forge or what you want to weld. I'd have to say definitely---yes, no, maybe! If you are totally new at blacksmithing I would suggest you get comfortable just working with steel before worrying about welding it. Sort of like learning to drive a car before asking a lot of questions about how to win races in one. Learn working and burning temps of various steels, how to judge if your fire is oxidizing, neutral or reducing. Get fast handling hot metal and getting it to the anvil and *hit* fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 good point thomaspowers. i guess hammering is enough for now. when i mean the coals are 6in deep not the wood art burning down to coals. by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal L Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Look at the steel and not for sparks although you might see a few sparks as you bring it out of the fire. Bring the steel up to a good red to orange heat and wire brush the piece to remove scale. Flux and put back in the center of your fire. Watch for the steel to get bright yellow to almost white and have a greasy or wet look as if the surface is has some movement to it. Bring it to the anvil and give light blows to make it stick and a little harder after it has stuck. At least this is what works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 wow there is so much to know about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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