Improving the floor of smithy

[urnesBeast]

I built my smithy, 10 foot by 15 foot or so. Good thick plywood floor on top of 10" tall runners, 16" on center. I have plenty of burn marks on the floor already, but nothing caused imminent danger of anything other than smoldering.

Someone was giving away a bunch of brick, so I thought about bricking the floor. Should I bother with a fireproof floor? I don't think brick would be ideal. I have been thinking of putting down a tarp, then covering the whole thing with soil that would eventually compact and harden.

I will likely own this house and Smithy forever, so resale value is not a big deal. Strange ideas are welcome.

Here is a picture of the Smithy mid construction.

-Doug

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Cut the floor out where your station is and use the remaining floor as shelves.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

I took out my cement floor around the forge and anvil and replaced it with pea gravel, it works great. You can change the height of the floor where needed. I have it lowest at the forge higher at the anvil and higher still at the post vise. By kicking some stones here and there I can change the height ratio at any time. Plus its very nice on the feet and fireproof.

[urnesBeast]

I took out my cement floor around the forge and anvil and replaced it with pea gravel, it works great. You can change the height of the floor where needed. I have it lowest at the forge higher at the anvil and higher still at the post vise. By kicking some stones here and there I can change the height ratio at any time. Plus its very nice on the feet and fireproof.

How deep do you have the pea gravel? I assume this pretty much means you never need to sweep the smithy again. Does the anvil stand on rest on top of the gravel, or is it buried down to the floor under the gravel?

[element]

Nice shop! I have a similar floor and my biggest problem is a vibrating floor when im forging, My solution will be cutting a hole in the floor about 3x3 feet and make a form so i can poor a cement pad level to the remaning floor, This is just for the anvil. Burns on the floor are not really a fire hazzard because if you drop a hot piece you will have to pick it up because it makes alot of smoke.

[urnesBeast]

Nice shop! I have a similar floor and my biggest problem is a vibrating floor when im forging, My solution will be cutting a hole in the floor about 3x3 feet and make a form so i can poor a cement pad level to the remaning floor, This is just for the anvil. Burns on the floor are not really a fire hazzard because if you drop a hot piece you will have to pick it up because it makes alot of smoke.

Oh, now I understand the earlier coment about cutting a hole in the floor. The idea is to make a concrete area all the way to the ground for under the anvil! Once I am really solid on where the anvil will live, I think this would be a good solution to a different problem!

[element]

Yes, Its one way to connect the anvil to the ground, And then you have the option of bolting down the anvil stand so everything is one solid mass. As for having a burn proof floor im going to live with out it for now, But i thought of putting a couple inches or maybe a bit more of cement on the entire surface along with some wire mesh. Yes it would crack a bit but nothing serious i think.

[SoCal Dave]

The problem I see is that if you have a brick floor and an ember/spark/slage falls in between the bricks, it can smolder for a very long time before it flames up. You may never see it smolder. You don't want to look out you window at three in the morning and see you shop ablaze. Leave the flooring and you can see the burns and extinguish them if they smolder and if it got real bad, you could cut a piece out with a chain saw. Good luck. :)

[urnesBeast]

The problem I see is that if you have a brick floor and an ember/spark/slage falls in between the bricks, it can smolder for a very long time before it flames up. You may never see it smolder. You don't want to look out you window at three in the morning and see you shop ablaze. Leave the flooring and you can see the burns and extinguish them if they smolder and if it got real bad, you could cut a piece out with a chain saw. Good luck.

So do people think pea gravel floor would have a similar problem? Something could get through a few inches of pea gravel. Maybe a real skim coat of cement for fireproofing would help there.

[unkle spike]

Me? I would put down something to mount masonry to, cement "backer board" comes to mind, then I would put down the bricks or some type of tile, and grout the cracks with non shrinking grout, no WAY would I have a wood floor in my shop. Just has too great of a chance of disaster. If the floor was nearly solid enough, you could also "skim coat" it with grout on the backer board.

[Fe-Wood]

10" framing members are going to bounce, no dought. Putting modified dirt/concrete will crack unless it is prohibitively thick and has metal mesh (rebar).
Are you on post and pier or do you have a perimiter footing?

My suggestion goes with the others in setting your anvil on a poured concrete base, set on the ground. If you dont want to do that until you have a lifetime possition for the anvil, leave access to the crawl space so you can place material under the current anvil location, as a simple footing. So, that would be from the top, anvil, stand, flooring, random bits of steel or wood to fill space, dirt ground. Hope thats understandable.
As far as fire safety, seal the joint crack between the walls and floor as this a perfect place for sparks to smolder.

Good luck and show more pics!!

[urnesBeast]

This is the design I used for the smithy:

Great Sheds - With Plans - Popular Mechanics

Here are the plans:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/documents/PMX0505shed001.pdf

I modified the plans such that the

2x6 joists are now 2x10
6x6 timbers are now 4x10 (2 2x10 glued and bolted)
Timbers are supported by ten cinderblocks, each on a pillar of cement sunk below frost line
Porch is uncovered

If I do build a pillar of cement to put the anvil on, I will likely need to pour it around at least one joist. I assume bigger is better. Will I need to sink this below the frost line also? For geographic reference, I am located in Boston.

I am liking the idea of the pillar. Already my hanging lights bounce a bit when really going at it.

If I understand the other suggestions right, I should cover the floor with cement backer board and put down a tile floor. What about just plain patio pavers with a bit of grout? The dirt floor idea?

Thanks,
Doug

[Frosty]

I believe Brian's suggestion was to remove the floor altogether and solve everything in one fell swoop. I tend to think this is the simplest and easiest route as well.

Fire proofing a wood floor is easy enough. Simply dissolve borax in water and spray it down, let it dry and repeat a couple times.

Same for dry laying a brick floor; pour a solid layer of borax powder between the bricks then fill to the top with sand. I don't much care for laying brick over a lumber frame floor though, it'll bounce worse than it does now and once you have a shop full of tools and material may result in a structural over load. Here's the deal killer in my book, did you use ground or concrete rated treated plywood for the floor? If not it's going to rot in a few years. If yes, every time a hot bit of metal makes it smoke you are BREATHING TOXIC SMOKE!

Cutting a hole in the floor for the anvil would be my distant second choice if there's a structural reason I couldn't remove the floor entirely. Do NOT pour concrete around a joist, it will rot out rather quickly! Cut any intersecting joists to clear the concrete pier, anchor concrete contact rated treated wood to the pier and reattach the cut joists to the treated wood with hangers and SS screws or ring shank nails and rest those on a ledger nailed to the treated plate again with SS ring shanks or screws.

Digging the pier in below frost line is only necessary if you like your anvil to stay where you put it. Sorry, the smart aleck in me just pops off sometimes.

Yes, you need to put it on a foundation that extends below frost line. I'd also wrap it with heavy mill plastic and back fill around it with NFS material. (Non Frost Susceptible) That means it won't hold water to freeze and heave, clean gravel is generally best.

See why I favor removing the whole floor if possible? It'd also give you another foot or better of head room and a fire safe floor for a wood stove for winter.

Best of fortune.

Frosty

Edited March 26, 2009 by Frosty

[urnesBeast]

Removing the floor is not an option. The floor of the shed is some 25-30 inches above ground level.

The borax fire proofing seems easy enough, I will do that. If I got lucky in the placement of joists and anvil, I might be able to pour a concrete pillar in between them without any joist rotting contact.

Thanks!
Doug

[Sam Thompson]

The large open are beneath your floor could allow a draught in to fan any fire that may start.

[urnesBeast]

What do you all think of sinking a pillar in one of those round cardboard tubes through the floor, down below the frost line. This would be my anvil stand also, maybe with about an inch of wood on top of the pillar? Think rebar would be needed in this?

Doug

[nthe10ring]

Is it high enough outside to come off the side with a shed roof and make a hot area for your forge and anvil and use the shed itself for finish work. I had my shop for years before i got into forging and its off the ground like yours and lots of stuff in it. You could just use a gravel base outside. In the winter the forge keeps me warm and in the summer with just a roof its much cooler. Course I just do bladesmithing. Just a thought.

Jerry Fisher

[element]

There is nothing wrong with staying above the freeze line, 2 feet or less. What matters is you need good sandy soil or nfs well bellow the bottom of the concrete and as much each side, It dont matter if your footing is 1 feet deep or 10 feet deep. Expanding water will move anything but if you allow it to flow away or drain away w/o restriction your problems will be minimal.
Those cardboard tubes would work and a few rebar could be beneficial. You could even set the anvil maybe an inch in the cement for a perfect fit but how long that would last is anyones guess. Personally im going to go with a metal stand so i can stand closer to the anvil if need be. The first thing i wish i knew before i started building a smithy is never build a wooden floor for a forge lol, But its to late now huh ;-)

[Rob Browne]

I have chosen to put my forge in a leanto on the side of my shed with a dirt floor. This has been closed in with corrugated iron sheets and plenty of windows as time has gone by. If I were you and it was an option I think the idea of separating your hot area from your grinding/polishing/layout area is a good one as they have very different uses.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

How deep do you have the pea gravel? I assume this pretty much means you never need to sweep the smithy again. Does the anvil stand on rest on top of the gravel, or is it buried down to the floor under the gravel?

the pea gravel is about 4" or so and yes you don't have to sweep, just rake or kick with feet. and the anvil is on a post that is in the ground and the pea gravel is around it. It was also much cheaper than concrete.

[Dave Leppo]

did anyone mention covering the floor w/ sheet metal? It could be bent up at the bases of the walls to form a sort of base board.

there can be quite alot of hot steel flying around, especially if you are cutting a corner off something w/ a chisel

[krisfaeth]

if you want to use the bricks a good idea would be to put down a layer of sand (1-2") for a footing and after laying brick grout gaps with more sand water gaps well ∧ resand

[rfb343]

What do you all think of sinking a pillar in one of those round cardboard tubes through the floor, down below the frost line. This would be my anvil stand also, maybe with about an inch of wood on top of the pillar? Think rebar would be needed in this?

Doug

First I dont want to discourage you in the least, but I think you may be looking for a way to use a saw as a hammer, if ya get my drift.... I had a simlare problem with my first shop... I tried a light weight construction of my own design(albeit over a dirt floor) and well it, blew down, so I am rebuilding with a standard pole barn construction. I tried something that didnt work, so I tried again... As far as the sonotube anvil base, you're looking for trouble(as far as the pounding would reduce even a big pillar to dust eventually , If I had to do it I would build a concrete block box up to the floor level that was several square feet in diameter and fill it with compacted dirt. That way you would solve some of your fire proofing problem, have a soild base to for your anvil and would be able to change your height fairly easily. I can post or email some scetches some sketches if you'd like

[urnesBeast]

Mark,

I have decided against bringing the pillar up all the way to be the anvil stand. I do like the idea of bringing a up some concrete to the floor level. With 16" on center, pressure treated supports under the floor, I think I am limited to that width for the concrete (I was warned against pouring the concrete around the supports for rotting).

If I hear you right, you are saying I could take foundation blocks to build up a box, fill it with soil and compact it. Saving on concrete cost and making it bigger. I think that I could wrap the supports in plastic or air gap to make the support box bigger.

Thanks!
Doug

[Sam Falzone]

Removing the floor is not an option. The floor of the shed is some 25-30 inches above ground level.

The borax fire proofing seems easy enough, I will do that. If I got lucky in the placement of joists and anvil, I might be able to pour a concrete pillar in between them without any joist rotting contact.

Thanks!
Doug

If you ever think of removing the floor entirely like Frosty suggested (... BTW Frosty I agree with you totally on that idea), you could lay down an 8" layer of crushed stone (1" stuff), vibro-compact it down and then put a 4" layer of pea gravel on top of that. You'd end up with phenominal drainage (bone dry even in the worst downpour), totally fire-proof, and still gain in the headroom - it may even solve any frost-heaving issues, depending on where you live.

The one major problem with concrete and brick floors that I didn't hear mentioned is that standing on concrete or brick for a long stretch is murder on your lower back and feet. A dirt, sand or gravel floor has some give and is much more forgiving on your joints. Just a thought.

Sam