Work With Nature

Sure 2000 years is more than a good time to trust Thomas. From my limited experience using just wood in the forge ( use what you got before you figure out that that wont work) it can get up to heat if one allows the fire to burn without turning on the blower for ten min. This builds up a lot of embers and when it is time to get the fire really hot one can turn the blower on again. For it to work the wood needs to be hard wood and 100% dry. Noticed that under those circumstances it does get hot enough to weld. Working on making charcoal all the time because we use it for the soil. But runs out fast too Jclonts82 I for one will see what you mean now today by soft vs firm. But the soaking thing I must try out too. Gonna give some welding a try today. I just reread everything and man if I may say so without coming of wrong this is some good usefull info.

Cool might actually buy the book Thomas. True it would be a real good idea alright with having someone show us how it is done. Had a wild goose chase now today with the blacksmith, the place I was told about was a motorbike repair shop. Don't ask. But anyways I did find that failing having someone show you as an alternative, maybe watching 20 YouTube videos by blacksmiths showing how it is done and watch for the similarities. At least that is the only option unless you are lucky to someone show it to you. Just to see if I got at least some of it worked out. The fire needs to be very hot, but not so hot as to melt or burn the steel one would be using. Air flow quantity is how that is controlled. It looks like the temperature is right just as the sparks are starting to fly. With my fire burning wood it would not get that hot. But noticed I do need the clay bricks of my forge to be glowing to get white heat. Hammer blows need to be very light for the first weld, tapping the mid line and then the edges and repeated the same on the other side of the weld. Reflux and get it back in to the fire fast. Next weld needs to be slightly harder and the third weld needs to be hammered hard enough to merge the steels together. Each time flux is applied by most. But then I have seen people do it all in one weld too. Maybe they edited it all out. As for burning of the flux no idea,. Difficult alloys one would need to know what steel you have, all I know is that welding high carbon steels to themselves is difficult. Also and because you and Charles told me - that certain fluxes do not work on newer steels, as the melting temperature of the flux needs to be lower because the alloys in them oxidize at lower temperatures. If you take to long from fire to hammer your steel will change color from white heat to orange and at that heat it is to late. The color may change depending on if it is day time or night time. Sure is not easy, but eventually we will get there.

Thanks for clearing it up. That makes a lot of sense. would be great to find out Steves recipe alright.

Hahaha. yes that might work, just make sure she does not object to it that is Hope you get a weld. From my very limited experience the surfaces have to be not only clean but as level as possible. Apparently so that when it gets up to the correct heat the molecules or something like that can do some strange magic and bond with other stuff to make the metal into one piece. But don't take my word for it. All I know that is the only time I managed to pull it of twice in a row. It is frustrating alright.

Wow nice forge and knife.

Cheers ThomasPowers, Cool that sounds like a good idea and might save me having to open tons of tiny packets every time I need some reasonable amount of flux. 16 rupees is not much here but I bet the roach alternative you could buy here would be even less than what it costs in the US. Will look into it now when I go into town later and am planning on visiting the local blacksmith today too. What is your opinion on the boric acid, do you think it is easy to pull of a weld by just using that. Is there anything that I would need to take into account. Read that it burns off quicker but to be honest am only guessing at what that means. Would you have to reflux two times for each heat. I realize that this might be a dum question, but if you don't mind would like to know for sure. Cheers David.

Hi JHCC, Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another great bit of information. I wonder if they meant by the boric acid not lasting as long as borax, that it burns off faster as it 's melting point is lower. Would you then have to reapply it in a slow heating fire? That is what I understood, but to be honest some stuff is just way over my head. Went today and tried the boric acid. I got further than before but messed up good. Tried to weld the carpenters handsaw blade in between the shoulders. Some of it did weld but not all. I think I did not get up to enough heat. Am using wood branches and they were not 100% seasoned, more like 80%. Also I am guessing that the size of the steel makes a difference to whether it will be able to heat up to forge welding temp. in a given size fire compared to using smaller pieces. Hi Glen, Thank You for your help I have sent out quite a few inquiries and waiting for them to get back to me via email. That is how it works over here you send an inquiry and you hope they get back to you. Have done the same for charcoal, but unless you are ordering larger quantities it might not be worth their time. But I have not tried actual chemical companies like those you suggest, will definitely give them a go. Might ask a friend to ring them as my Malayalam is three words. As mentioned yesterday I got lucky and found out about a local blacksmith. That surely will get me a contact for his supplier. Plus he might be kind enough to show me some skills too. Hi Dogsoldat, I was wondering about that too. Even did try using something like that myself. Was a mix of termite clay and powdered charcoal slurry. Tried welding bandsaw blades into a billet. 7 I think. They were higher carbon steel as the material did harden. Coated the billet in the stuff and most of the middle did forge weld. arkie, Ha, you know if someone wants to help someone then let them. What is the alternative. But you know you are quite right I have received more than enough help in regards to finding borax and am grateful to everyone for their help. I shall follow up on all the leads now. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Thanks for the link, appreciate that. OK finally I got some borax in the form of boric acid. Acording to a member here on the forum this works well as a flux. Source; OK it only comes in 20 gram packets but only costs 16 rupees. Finally the search is over. I will give it a go. Thanks for all the patient help. Cheers David.

Great info I also just managed after quite the search to find some boric acid in the pharmacy. Was wondering if it could be used. Thanks.

Steve Sells, Frosty, Guys you really got spend more time reading the threads fully or you have totally misunderstood me as to how you managed that I really don't know. Very useful information. Did not know that. Thanks Thomas.

Wow so many different ways. Here is my beginners build. I had a lot of clay bricks that were fired. Used a 4 inch pipe with slots cut into the pipe under the clay brick fire pot. These are cut one third of the way into the pipe and are spaced nearly 1 inch apart. I think I got 8 cuts. The fire pot is just two and a half bricks leaning at an angle on either side of the pipe. The hair dryer works well but for charcoal I have noticed it gives of to much air. For a wood fire it works very well. The chimney is now a 6 inch pipe, before I had just some sheet bent in half but a lot of smoke got in the 'shop'. The chimney is attached with some home made fire clay and I got a good draft going. Cheers David.

Hi could not find the thread. Looked under the topic knife making and did a search. Do you happen to have a link.

That is exactly what I was gonna try next, but use a bolt from just iron - no galvanized. Then I could tighten it all as much as possible. The rivet could replace the bolt once it worked or maybe dress both ends of the bolt up. Also after reading the next post after yours by Charles R. Stevens about inserting some low alloy tool steel I would like to try and stick a thin piece of relatively new / old carpenters wood hand saw blade into the mid section of the axe. I think the shoulder piece of the axe is more than mild steel as there are more sparks. Good news is someone here on the forum is sending me some borax and that will help a lot if this fails. But am going to try that weld first just to see if one could pull it off. I wont mind as I tend to learn a lot anyways from mistakes. My limited experience with the 19 layer billet has shown me that it may be done if all the right circumstances are in place. Also I used that carpentry steel before with some high carbon bandsaw blades and it actually worked using the WD40. That is how I got that 19 layers. If it would have worked without WD40 I don't know. But it did not get in the way. ThomasPowers, Will go back in and ask. Will bring the Malayalam name with me ബൊറാക്സ് pronounced beāṟāks. Might get lucky. I know I will be able to get an ongoing source close by here eventually.Just found out about a blacksmith shop nearby. So that is good. I can really appreciate now after having more info that without the borax depending on what you are trying to do you are fighting an uphill struggle.

Thanks Charles, Ah I see. Have tried forge welding using carbon steel from a truck spring. A light bulb went off there in my head. Think I got what you mean - The flux melts just before the alloy in the steel scales up and prevents the scale from ruining the weld. Thanks, this is starting to make sense.

Hi Charles R. Stevens, thanks I know everyone is just trying to help and will forgive them as I think they did not read the entire thread fully before commenting. Perhaps they are busy guys with all the threads they have to go through. Tried the amazon today but they don't do paypal. But one of your members was very kind and wants to send me some. He private messaged me and am very thrilled that I can now get going in a proper way with the welds. Please do understand though that my questioning was not just about borax. Finding out when scale is there or not is just another piece in the puzzle. Knowing about some of the different fluxes and that some are cleaning, covering and how the dry flux works helps tons. Just to name some of the information made available on this forum, by some of your members to newbies like me. Most of you were educated properly in blacksmithing. I am just a beginner who is trying to learn from videos and forums and my mistakes. Last but not least I have managed two successful forge welds using the WD40 and dry method of cleaning everything to a shine and having the surfaces flat as can be. The small billet above. I thought I might with some help and advise, pull of the axe in the same manner. But you live and you learn. I do not need anymore help with borax though. Unless someone might know go to such and such a shop in kollam I really do not wish to waste anyone's time on that subject anymore. If however anybody in the future does come across a suitable borax substitute. You know can clean and cover the weld and does it at the proper temperature or any info regarding how one could pull of a weld on an axe like that with no borax then please let me know. Sorry to hear that such an illness is affecting you. Best wishes David.

Steve Sells, Frosty, I have done nothing wrong. I do not know why both of you have gotten personal on this. I think it spoils a post like this. I was nothing but polite. I have come to this forum to ask for help and trying to understand how it all works. Also I have read many threads on the subject even here on this forum. I was under the impression by the way this forum works that help is freely offered. If my asking questions seams to get some people hot and bothered then that is not my problem. Really is not. I have asked specific questions and posted specific threads as those are the rules as far as I understand them about forums. So what do you want from me? Edit: I do not have a problem what so ever with chemicals that is an assumption. You can clearly see from the posts above that I am using WD40. Besides borax is not poison! It is a mineral. I think Steve you are just looking for a fight. Why? Please do not bother me if that is your attitude. Frosty, please mind your own business in regards to what type of counseling I may or may not need. I think you guys are not being very appropriate.

Hi JHCC, Did try, spend one day driving around going into every shop and pharmacy and also even till now always on the look out if I am in a new town. Yesterday went into town to the tool place where they sell welders. but they don't have it. Asked him to order some but he did not know where. But not to worry I will figure a way of getting it yet. Cheers EnglishDave,That is exactly the problem. I did cold forge them as close as I could, but the steel is 5 mil thick and no matter what I do there is a gap. Then when the steel heats up it just falls apart. The front billet that was to be the cutting edge just slid out. Welding it would help. But I used a very thick wire and clamped it together before tightening. That is why I was asking about the temperature when scale starts to form, well more when there is none. So I could bash the pieces together is what I thought. Thanks again ThomasPowers, Wow did read the entire thread. Steel glue hey. Was very informative and confirmed that I am kind of on the right track. That makes some difference to me knowing that. Copied the recipe down for when I can get all the ingredients at a future time. Ah of course at a high enough temperature the scale just melts. Makes sense that. Alright have a great day you guys. David.

Hi Jeremy, I have made inquiries, have come up with nothing yet. But I am watching YouTube videos and asking here on the forum. Am open to the idea though, just need to bump into the right persons to ask. Just got back and had no luck with the weld. The gap was just to big. Plus tried two pieces in the shoulders. The 19 layer one and just a piece of mild steel, maybe I bit off more than I could chew. The 19 layer one just fell out and now I can appreciate how quick a layer of scale forms around the steel. I had it all shiny and one heat it was back to black scale. The mild steel piece was stuck in by wire but stayed loose the hole time. I think it was not hot enough for the one and only heat that I had to pull it of with the hydrocarbon WD40. As far as I understand it anyways. Even tried sugar in the end with nothing to lose. Made a nice flame. But I had a great day at it and learned heaps. So I am happy enough. Cheers David.

Ha I am robed on a daily bases and do you think I am to encourage that? India is another world. Hard to grasp if you never have been here it is true that 3$ is a useful amount over here. As someone already financing a heirloom seed saving project and stay here in India by myself with only YouTube as an income. Can tell you getting ript of is not great. But anyway it really is beside the point. What I do have a problem with is this. If you do not know an answer to a question then just say so and don't criticize my wanting to try something else or my thirst for knowledge. A comment like that will make me just not ask anymore. Plus I did not get a satisfactory answer to my specific question (no obligation) in regards to a substitute for a both cleansing and encasing flux. Borax is such a flux and that is why people use it. But I am also entitled to find out if there is one out there that can be as good as borax. The guy or girl who tried borax for the first time did us all a favor. Maybe someone knows of a material that would be great as a proper substitute. Limiting ourself's to just one is not good in my opinion and most importantly, if there is no proper substitute in your opinion well then just say so. At least this is the impression I am getting. It goes without saying that I do not mean sand, glass, clay, ash or hydrocarbons. As they mainly exclude 02 only. Besides this thread was on scale not borax. I just did not want you wasting your time telling me about borax so I said right up front I don't have borax. Anyways hope there is no hard feelings am off to try that axe today and will give the above ideas a go. Cheers David.

ThomasPowers, You really know your stuff, cheers for all the help you have given. Have been trying to stay away from ordering online as there are a few rip of vendors in India who are really good at what they do. The tip about the forge, now that is something I can do and will use from now on. So just to be sure glowing starts just at a dull red stage? Also is there any scale at the yellow to white stage? No scale forms in a fire where oxygen is not being pumped in. I think I nearly have it, am just trying to fully grasp how it all works. Kozzy, Cheers for your suggestions. Well you are not to know but did just that and translated borax to both Hindi and Malayalam and went to all the towns in the area. Ended up in the pharmacy and laundry sections. The rickshaw driver thought I was nuts. As for reinventing the wheel and do get what you mean. I have no wheal but wondering if I could get the job done regardless. Unfortunately my wheels are made from clay sand and WD40. Boy I wish I had a real wheal. But if it is OK by everyone I am trying to make the best out of a challenging situation. If I could forge those pieces together at a before glowing temperatures as Thomas mentioned then I could stick the WD40 on the cool welding area. Maybe I will take a chance with the amazon India suppliers. the iron dwarf, Hey that is a good idea, thanks. Will give it a go. BIGGUNDOCTOR, You know I think that kind of info is great. Is it possible to use it as a flux then? I don't want to mess up the small axe I am making whilst at the same time trying to get my head around the hole thing.

Hi if I could ask a question. I would like to know if one could close the gap between two pieces that are to be forge welded. (see axe picture ). My aim would be to get it up to a heat where no scale yet exists. If there is such a thing. Then I would let the piece cool down and add another round of WD40 or equivalent to the welding area in prep for the second heat to do the weld. What are the temperatures when scale starts to form and when there is none. Would there then be any soot from the first fire to prevent a clean weld? As some of you may know I can not get any borax here in India. Am planing to forge weld the small damascus billet (second picture) to the shoulders of a bit of mild steel. The gap is down to a mil in places. But I do not have a welder and the wire does not get tight enough. Might use some bolts that I might replace with some rivets to fasten it all together. But they might get in the way of the hammer for the weld. Also am going to add another piece of mild in the gap i'm thinking. Last but not least. Read about that some fires are oxidizing and others are not. Propane gas seems to stop air getting in. What about coal wood or charcoal. Could they be made into a non oxidation fires? Hopes this makes sense as I accidentally deleted the first post and now am tired Cheers David.

Hi ThomasPowers, Ah have come across the canister welding. But unfortunately there is no way that I will buy a welder. Ok maybe I could find someone up the road who may do it for me. But you see I really want to try the cable. Plus running up to him every time prob not to practical. But for interest sake can you further explain the oil in the can? Am making a small axe head right now with the small Damascus as a bit, up in the picture. I was thinking what tool do I need right now. An axe was one. Plus the billet was to small for a knife. Really hope I can pull of the weld now with the WD40.

Am a beginner, But I think it is also important to add a paper cover in between ash and clay and you will see them do that for the swords. My guess is with only ever doing the clay once, is that the paper keeps the clay particles out. It creates a container as some have mentioned here. With my clay charcoal slurry I had some of the in between layers get gunked up with clay dust. Did have a hot enough heat and it did not melt any of the clay. The charcoal was all gone. Used termite clay.

I was having some more thoughts / questions about fluxes or even no flux and to the terminology used to describe them. But also I am still in need of a cleaning type of flux other than the fore mentioned. No borax here and I have tried hard to get it, in fact I really wish I could get some. Looks to be great stuff. This is what my understanding is so far, cheers! Realized that for me it was really handy to recognize that there is a distinction between the three (well that I know of) methods to do the forge welding and that they are linked to "fluxing" in a way. Two Smoggy kindly mentioned above. There are dry, cleaning and covering. Dry kind of applies to surface areas being very clean as in shiny and also very level, so extremely close together - so no flux is actually needed. Cleaning is where the flux washes out rust and I read that it can also dissolve small amounts of scale if the weld does happen to oxidize. Covering is as Smoggy mentioned to exclude air from getting at the weld in the first place. Borax because of it's god like nature (joke) has the ability to do both the covering and cleaning. Wow! Where as sand and probably every other flux I have read about so far can only do covering. It goes without saying right, that I will make darn sure that those layers are as level and clean as I can get them So in a way I am always doing a dry (no flux) in the setup, prep phase. But what I am really after is this. I watch people on YouTube with relative ease forge welding stuff that looks pretty rusty and even may give off a certain amount of scale before the second or subsequent weld, but yet with borax in their tool box they can get around scale / rust. Vinegar as mentioned will deal with the rust but what about the scale? Keep the piece yellow hot the hole time? If anyone knows of a good substitute for borax in relation to the way it can do both the cleaning and covering I will be seriously indebted to you. Hope you do not mind my round about question. Thanks David.