newbieforge

Jerome, That's a really nice anvil and tools, and an awesome story to go with it! And you got a stand with it, too... a real jackpot! Now you can go home and use it immediately. You don't even have to wait until you build your own stand. Congrats on your serendipity. All the best Markus

Is it long or short? Like a pinnnnnnnnnggggggg or pink or tink or ... ? What if you tap on the heel? Markus

I'm going to say it's a Wilkinsons. In your enlarged photos (thanks for posting) it looks like there may have been some writing on the right side (assuming horn is the 'front') however it is too marked up from use to tell. And, those legs... again I am no anvil expert, but Wilkinsons are the only ones I have seen with that style. This may not be a diagnostic feature, but I think it might be... sort of like Peter Wrights have the flat parts on the front and back. How does the anvil ring? Can you describe the sound? Regards, Markus

Hi utaholdiron, Based on unique shape of the legs, and the steeper angle of the heel underside, I would say it looks like a Wilkinsons. You can see some photos of my Wilkinsons, to see what I am talking about: http://www.iforgeiro...9179-lucky-day/ However, my Wilkinsons does not have the stars stamped in the front (below the horn). Also, yours does not appear to have the Wilkinsons name and other markings stamped in the side, as mine does. Is there any way you could post larger photos? All the best Markus

Thomas, macbruce, Good advice. I'm now thinking about slapping together a little coffee can gas forge to heat up that tip. It should be able to get it to orange heat pretty quickly. Would the horn tip need any quenching or hardening? Regards Markus

Hi shralp, Welcome to the site. You may find Larry Zoeller's work on gas forges interesting and useful: http://zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html There are also a other excellent pages on forge and burner construction, for example: https://sites.google.com/site/ejuribe/forge http://ronreil.abana.org/shepherd.html Here is a page that explains how to make a Ron Reil style burner: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html The Ron Reil burners are excellent and cost efficient, if you don't feel like paying nearly $200 for one of the T-Rex burners available from http://www.hybridburners.com. The T-Rex burners are reportedly very very good, but the quality will cost you. There are other DIY burner designs out there, including the T-burner by Frosty (a member on this site). I am having great success and fun with the Reil style burners explained at that last link above. You'll notice that all these gas forges have something in common with Modern Blacksmith's forge. They are basically a cylindrical body, with one of the ends capped off, with the burner(s) pointing into it. Another useful style of forge is the "pile of bricks" which is pretty aptly described by the name. http://www.jamesriser.com/Machinery/GasForge/PropaneForge.html Personally, I wouldn't use Modern Blacksmith's design to make a forge that I wanted to use more than once or twice. However, I recently bought a 220lb anvil with a squished horn tip, and I may use something like Modern Blacksmith's "tube forge" to heat up the horn, and fix the shape. His idea is basically functional; his choice of materials a bit suboptimal. The gas forge I built myself is made from a section of 100lbs propane tank. The metal shell is about 1/8" thick, it has 4 burners, and 2 layers of 1" Kaowool liner. I built it by following the info on Ron Reil's web site: http://ronreil.abana.org/Forge1.shtml You can easily start experimenting with forges if you buy a box of 1" thick 8lb Kaowool (it may run you around $100), and enough plumbing parts and gas hardware to build one or two Reil style burners (probably another $25-40 per burner, plus $30-50 for the "red hat" propane regulator). Once you get a pair of working burners, and some insulating material, you will be in a position to try out all kinds of ideas for forge shapes, before deciding on one that you will build into a more permanent state. Having a cheap flux core or MIG welder also helps a lot. If you want to buy a ready-made gas forge, that is possible (e.g. from Chile Forge) but it is costlier, and in my opinion, not nearly as interesting as building one yourself. Building blacksmith gear is a process that takes time. This site is definitely for new people, not just experienced smiths. Don't take the reaction to your video too personally. People here tend to err on the side of too much caution, rather than having someone get hurt by trying something risky that they saw on this site. It's as simple as that, and you can find other such examples in the forum if you look. Welcome & best of success Markus

Yikes. I didn't realize the prices were so bad down south! Markus

P.S. I just noticed you're in Mississauga, and a fellow Canadian! I searched for "anvil" on Kijiji for Toronto area. This came up: http://toronto.kijij...QAdIdZ428202456 It wouldn't hurt to visit the seller, and try to offer around $200 ($2/lb) for it. You might get lucky. Markus

For the amount of time and materials you're going to spend welding on a plate or resurfacing, it would be easier and cheaper to just get a real anvil. Based on what I have seen and read, these sorts of anvil repair projects tend to only make sense if one or more of these is true: - your time has no value - you have the tools and materials for repair available at no cost to you - a real anvil is prohibitively expensive in your area - a real anvil is unavailable in your area - you really enjoy anvil repair If I were in your shoes, I would just use the cast iron anvil as-is for now, and save my time and money for a real one. They are out there. Just my 2 cents. Markus

I was browsing Kijiji for my area yesterday, and noticed an anvil up for sale. The ad was totally devoid of details, basically saying: "Anvil blacksmith tool for sale. 28.5" long 12" high. Price $450, call Mathieu 705-XXX-YYYY." This afternoon, the ad was still there, so I phoned the guy and asked if I can come see it. I headed over and he had a really nice 220lbs Peter Wright. We shot the breeze for a little bit. He had done some research and knew the $/lb ranges for these anvils. I was happy to pay him $2/lb ($440) for it even though I definitely don't need another anvil. The only real damage is the tip of the horn, which has been squished a little bit. I have seen this on a few other anvils. It seems as though people like to tip them off their stands, nose first onto concrete floors. The story of this anvil is that the seller got it from a friend, when he was helping the friend clean out his garage. The friend gave him the anvil for free, and at first he thought he would take it to a scrap yard and get some money for it. Then he started looking into anvils and how much they are really worth, and quickly realized it's worth more as an anvil. Good thing. Here are some photos after I got it home: All the best Markus

Hi Paul, I know very little about my Wilkinsons. Most of what I know I have picked up from IFI: These anvils are made from multiple pieces (5, if I am not mistaken) of wrought iron, all forged welded together. The face is tool steel (unsure of thickness) forge welded on. Markus

I would hazard to guess that you are a lucky owner of a Wilkinsons. The unique shape of the base and legs, the way the horn blends into the body, and the chunky heel give it away. My 217# Wilkinsons has the exact same features. I am no anvil expert, but I have not seen these features on other anvils. For comparison, here are some photos of my Wilkinsons: Mine does not have a very powerful ring, but has excellent rebound. How does yours sound when you (lightly) tap the face with a hammer? Markus

Thanks for posting the links, Phil. I really enjoyed reading about how you built your gas forge. I learned 1 or 2 things I'll have to try out myself. Regards, Markus

raptorvan, I checked out the burner link on backyardmetalcasting.com that you posted. This burner is very simple to make and probably works well enough for foundries. But I think it will be less than ideal for blacksmithing, because it will be tricky to tune it to a neutral or reducing flame. (As you know from your research into gas forges, an important part of running the forge is controlling the interior atmosphere.) Also, the flares the backyardmetalcasting.com guy uses are on the thin side. Scarily thin. Sheet metal will burn up pretty fast, and before it burns, it will get soft and sag, possibly blocking the burner tube. That could cause all sorts of "fun" situations, with burning gas coming out of the wrong end of the burner, and so on. I would strongly recommend NOT using sheet metal. Instead follow Ron Reil's design and take a piece of 1" pipe and forge out the flare. The Reil burner is already as simple as it gets. Instead of cutting corners with "simplified Reil" burners, I would strongly recommend you build a real Reil burner first, even if for no other purpose than to educate yourself on how these burners work. These are the instructions I followed initially: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html It might take you a bit more time, but you'll actually get a safe, reliable burner that can put out the heat you need. All the best Markus

Thomas makes a good point. Building your blacksmithing gear is a process. Make your first burner by following the plans exactly. That means follow the lengths and dimensions to the t, and try to buy plumbing parts that look like the ones in the plans. This will pretty much guarantee that you will get a working burner when you are done. When you have a working burner, you will have a much better idea of how they work. Then you'll be in a great position to start playing around with the design, and trying out some of your own ideas. All the best Markus

It sounds like your burner does not have a flared tip. The flare is necessary to hold the flame. If you have not, you should through Ron Reil's burner info: http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml Also do you have any photos or sketches you could post, explaining what you have built? That would help us help you. All the best Markus

Frozenforge, You nailed it, I will definitely I agree that it is a lot of tinkering, but not always for nothing. :) This is very well-explored territory. It's also a mentally stimulating and fun activity to take the mind off the day-to-day grind. :D All the best Markus

Frosty, I've been following Ron's work on burners quite closely. It's nice to talk to someone who is so close to the source. Thanks for pointing out that you can tune the burner by moving the jet along the burner axis, without a choke. I hadn't picked up on that. This gives me some ideas; I think I can simplify my burners quite a lot. I like these burners for the reasons you mentioned -- they don't require external power, they are cheap to make, and they don't require re-tuning when you change the gas pressure. The price of these advantages is that they are trickier to get working... but, that is something in which I'm willing to invest some time to learn. Ron does discuss some 1" and larger burners, called the Mongo series, here: http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml#TheMongo I think that with some experimenting, it should be possible to scale up the Reil 3/4" burner to be a 1" burner, or even larger. The operating principle is the same. All the best Markus

Oops... double post

macbruce, That's an interesting idea. I didn't think of varying the orifice size to balance the air flowing into the back of the burner. I'd be interested to try it... wouldn't that be really tricky to tune? Are you willing to share any plans or dimensions for this kind of burner, that work well? You're right, messing with air gates can be finicky. At some point I'll simplify the choke, so that it can be tuned and then fixed in position. On the other hand, the T-Rex burners have adjustable chokes and they have developed a reputation of being "the best in class" for as far as atmospheric burners go. All the best Markus

HWooldridge, Thanks for replying. No risk of flaming from me. If there are better directions I could be headed, I'd rather know sooner than later, so I can save my effort. However I have to admit, I have fun whenever I mess around with burners, no matter what... :) Your point on the importance of good insulation and refractory lining is well taken. My forge has 2" of kaowool, coated with ITC-100. I am thinking about putting in another layer to reduce the volume, and improve insulation. I read about blowers, and I know a lot of people use them and make money with them. Are you able to get a neutral atmosphere with your electric blower? Back before I had built anything, I had read about the need for neutral and reducing forge atmospheres. The Venturi / induction type burners provided a pretty easy way to do that. I understood that with blowers (and I may be completely wrong, please correct me if I am!) the atmosphere will be oxidizing because of all the extra air being pushed into the forge. All the best Markus

Having recently gotten my gas forge into a state where it is working reasonably well, my next steps will be to optimize the burners, with the goal of being able to reliably get welding temperature. As Frosty pointed out to me in another topic, my forge is also a bit underpowered. I have been using the front 10" of the forge, with at most two (out of four) 3/4" burners lit. The interior diameter is 10.5" which means each burner services roughly 430 cubic inches. This is above the recommended minimum of 300 cubic inches per burner. Based on this, I am working on a new 1" burner design. As a 1" burner is equivalent to two 3/4" burners, I should be able to replace one of the existing 3/4" burners to bring the world back into balance, and get welding heat. Furthermore, my burners have terrible nozzles. I forged them roughly from 1" pipe, at barely red heat. I was dealing with the chicken and egg problem of needing a forge to forge the burner nozzles, so I had to fake it. These nozzles are very ugly, but they have worked well enough for now. But I think they can be made better, and so this is the first area I worked on. Improving Existing 3/4" Burners I made two new nozzles for testing. Both nozzles are made from cheap cast iron plumbing couplings. One is from a straight 3/4" coupling; the other is from a 3/4" to 1". I used my Chinese 7x12 mini lathe to bore out 1:12 (5 degrees) tapers in one end of each coupling, leaving the thread on the other end. The thread then lets me screw the nozzles onto a threaded pipe nipple. This is different than the classic Reil burner design, where the pipe nipple threads are cut off, requiring you to use a set screw to attache the forged nozzle in place. The following web site was a great help to me when building these burners: http://metalcast.boo....us/reil_1.html As in these instructions, the output orifice is drilled into the side of the brass 1/8" pipe nipple, with a 0.040" diameter (#60 drill bit). The New Nozzles Nozzle A - my original badly forged piece of 1" pipe Nozzle B - straight 3/4" coupling, with one end bored out to a 1:12 taper Nozzle C - 3/4" to 1" coupling, with the 1" end bored out to a 1:12 taper Test Setup The leg vise is holding a burner by the tube. The burner is connected to a 20lbs propane tank, via a 0-30psi regulator. The regulator has a 0-30psi pressure gauge. The burner tube is a 3/4" by 8" long black pipe nipple. Test Procedure The basic idea was to see what each nozzle does at different pressures, and at different flame types (oxidizing, neutral and reducing). Flames: The oxidation type of the flame can be adjusted using the choke on the back of the burner. To adjust the flame type, I first put Nozzle C (3/4" to 1" coupling) on the burner, and set the gas pressure to 5psi. For the oxidizing flame, I opened the choke right up, letting the burner suck in the maximum amount of air. In this setting, the flame was a bright blue stream with some orange streaks further away from the nozzle. For a neutral flame, I adjusted the choke so that the "tongue" in the middle of the flame started showing some green at the furthest tips away from the nozzle. For reducing flame, I set the choke nearly closed so that the flame tongue became a more transparent greenish blue with a blue transparent halo further away from the nozzle. Pressures: I tested at various gas pressures: <1psi, 1psi, 5psi, 10psi, 15psi and 30psi. With the <1psi tests, I intended to see how each nozzle performed at very low pressure. When working, I'd never use pressure this low but I thought it would be interesting to see what the nozzles do anyway. The 30psi tests were interesting, because these high pressures may actually be useful to get very intense heat in the forge. At each flame type and pressure, I took a photo of the flame coming out of the burner. I used the manual mode on my DSLR camera, with exposure set to f2.8 and 1/160 shutter. Using the same exposure settings for each photo will allow a fairly objective comparison of each flame's characteristics. Test Results These images show the flame produced by each nozzle type. Here are the same images, but rearranged to compare the oxidizing, neutral and reducing flames from each nozzle. If there is no photo for an oxidation/pressure setting, then it means that the nozzle would not hold a flame at that setting. Nozzles A and B had trouble holding flames at higher pressures. In all these image sets, you can clearly see how the shape and colour of the flame are affected by the gas pressure and choke setting. Comments & Notes Nozzles A (forged from 1" pipe) and B (3/4" coupling) both performed poorly at higher pressure with the choke set for an oxidizing flame. I suspect that these nozzles held the flame too weakly at high pressure, and the blast of air that the burner inhales at high pressure just blew out the flame. Nozzle B worked ok at pressures up to 23-24psi, but any higher and it did not hold a flame. Also at very low pressure, Nozzle B developed a "woop woop woop" where the flame jumped in and out of the burner tube. Nozzle A out-performed Nozzle B at high pressures. Nozzle A (the badly forged 1" pipe) had no problem holding a flame at high pressure, as long as the choke was set to reducing or neutral flame. Like Nozzle B, it could not hold a flame when the choke was wide open. The flame shape from Nozzles A and B was less consistent than Nozzle C. The flame from Nozzle C was almost always nice and straight. Nozzle C was the best of all three. It was impossible to make the burner blow itself out, no matter how high or low the gas pressure, or what the choke setting was. At extremely low pressure, where the gauge was showing 0psi and the regulator was just about completely closed, the nozzle held a nice smooth flame. At pressure above 30psi, where the regulator was cranked way up, the burner still held a solid flame. At around 10psi and above, all the burners made a pleasing roar. At 30psi, the roar from Nozzle C was almost deafening. I can't wait to hear what a 1" burner sounds like at 30psi. Needless to say, I will be making a lot more of Nozzle C for my 3/4" burners. My next test this week will be to put new nozzles on the existing burners, and then see what kind of temperatures I can get inside the forge. Nozzle C type burners are nice because the cast iron plumbing part costs a couple of dollars, and machining out the taper takes about 5 minutes. Looking to the future, I am already working on scaling up the 3/4" burner design to a 1" burner. When ready, I will test it in a similar manner as described above. Here are some nozzles I've already machined in preparation: On the left is the 3/4" to 1" coupling which we've already seen. It is here to compare sizes with the 1" nozzles. In the middle is a 1" to 1-1/4" coupling. The 1-1/4" end has been bored out to 1:12 taper. On the right is a straight 1" coupling, with one end bored out. Based on these test results, I would predict that the 1" to 1-1/4" coupling will perform the best. (The 1" to 1-1/4" coupling is galvanized, and I am aware that galvanized parts are bad. I do plan to burn off the galvanization in good ventilation before doing anything else with it.) That's it for now. My search for a better understanding of forge burners continues... Comments, questions and criticisms welcomed. All the best Markus

Frosty, Thank you for the constructive advice. Clearly, my forge is slightly underpowered given the volume I am expecting to heat. Based on what you are telling me, I am working on a 1" burner. When it's done, I'll replace one of the 2 front burners with it. That should give the equivalent of three 3/4" burners for the front 10" of the forge, putting it in the ballpark of one 3/4" burner per 300 cubic inches. In fact, I think Mr. Reil should not even know of my existence. His information is very thorough, and so I found no need to contact him with questions. Furthermore, other people have documented how they build their own Reil burners (for example: http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html) so all I had to do was read the instructions and do the work. The hardest part was getting to the plumbing store to get the parts! :) All the best Markus

vihalvor, thank you! setlab, the brick holders on the front are working really well. Having tried the bricks, I would not consider using a fixed size front opening on this forge. The flexibility to reduce the opening to the minimum required for a particular work piece is great, because it maximizes how much heat the forge retains in the interior.

strgraw, Here is one trick you can try: Get some thin gauge steel or stainless steel wire, probably 18, 20 or 24 gauge, or so. You can also use regular picture hanging wire from a craft store. On your coffee can, drill pairs of holes about 1/4" or 1/2" apart. The holes should be just big enough to pass the wire through. Then, pass the wire through one hole, hook it through some kaowool, and pass the wire back out the 2nd hole. (Just don't let the wire poke through into the forge interior -- it will burn through when you run the forge, and let go the kaowool.) Finally twist the ends of the wire to hold it on, and cut off any excess. Put as many of these on your coffee can as you need to hold the kaowool. I have used this method to "sew" kaowool to expanded metal. It's cheap and easy and works great. All the best Markus