iron quake

The part of the tap that matters is the first few threads. These do all the cutting the rest of the threads on the tap really don't do any cutting. So here is how I tell. Turn the cutting edge of the tap, the first 4-8 threads depending on the amount of taper it has (gun bottoming vs. taper tap) so you are looking right at the edge formed by the fluts and the section you would call the thread. With the light behind you if you can see the edge its likley worn or rolled off. Next run it against your thumb nail unless it's a very small >6/32 in the same cutting section, if its not catching your nail firmly its worn also. The bad part of using old taps if your cutting new threads with them, is if they break off in your part, you just spent a lot of time machining it make a new tap price look like a real cheap. Sometimes you can break out the bad tap or have it EDM'ed but bad none the less. I power tap most of the time and a nice new gun tap makes a lot of fine threads in a hurry.

Well I don’t know if it’s a better idea or not that’s why I posted the idea. I’m in a little different situation than many of you being , that I need to make tools to be able to make tools. I have a machine shop and welding equipment so that’s what I use and I’m good at it as well. I don’t get any real satisfaction in making tools either. I need to make tools to make things to sell to make money. I don’t have the skills to make three foot long drawn out parts off the end on the tool to make a spring out of it. It must be real nice to be able to do that but I can’t. I watched Clifton Ralphs DVD and most of the tools looked to me like they are welded to springs. So the real question is do the current tools break or not, and if they do why do they, and if it can be avoided why not do it. I don’t have a problem fixing broken tools, just getting hit by them as they get ejected from the hammer because they failed. Following logic that says that’s the way we do it because that’s the way it’s always been done and it can’t be improved on. If that kind of thought was adhered to in the past we would still be cutting our meat with stone tools and you boys would be hammering bronze out over a stone, instead using a power hammer run by……ELECTRICTY.

Why don’t spring tools have another joint in them? I’m new to this blacksmithing /power hammer game but it occurs to me there needs to be another axis of rotation in the top arm/tool half. In building and using these tools in my hammer, it’s clear to me when you make any kind of tool like this the top part of the tool is always getting hammered parallel to the bottom. This is in spite of the part you are forging prying the two apart and trying to force the upper half off on an angle. This puts a bending moment and high stress in the top part of the spring, right behind the point of attachment of the spring to upper tool half. This is the place the tools fail at when they do I’m guessing. If you are machining heat treating and then welding the tools to formed mild steel springs like I am, why not make a hinge in the upper spring just outside the die area. This would allow the upper half to pivot rather than bend the spring, right behind the weld joint. I think the joint/hinge would need to be long and made pretty tight to keep the upper tool from moving out of position relative to the lower half in that axis. What am I missing? Your thoughts please before I go off and waste a bunch of time making a tool like this, only to go…. DUH that’s why not ….? Yes I’d love to post a sketch of this but I’m still struggling with that whole picture posting deal and you are all smart enough to get what I’m asking anyway. Thanks again for spending your time, to answer my neophyte questions

The input from you folks is just invaluable to me, I can’t thank you enough. I gleaned several knowledge nuggets from this post. The shoulder tool will be very helpful and the video of Grant RIP, gives me the idea of placing a removable collar on long parts to get them located into the dies accurately every time. I need to buy a chipping hammer as my 6X rivet hammer is a little too weenie for a lot of things and the shank it too small to machine parts with a larger end mass for doing things like those mentioned above. For any of you using these chipping hammers or pneumatic tools for forming hot what’s the best alloy to machine these from? I like S7 a lot and have been making tools from that for 30 years but not hot work tools. How about H10 11 or H13? Thanks again.

I want to make furniture; not gates, railing, car parts, sculptures, knifes or tools. Whatever it takes to get the job done most efficiently and safely within my limited budget is all I’m after. I’m interest in making money at this along with creating something useful. Thank you all for your input.

I’m making .38 round tenons on .75 square bars. I made a spring tool from 4140 and heat treated it. It’s a progressive .43, .38, .31, .25. I made it for tenons and drawing out long round sections. The holes are relived on the sides where the two halves come together so I don’t get over lap and shunts. I’d say it works ok such as it is The issue is, I’ve been reducing the .75 bar to .50 square before sticking it in the spring tool but I get a lot non square shoulder to fix because of the radiuses on the edge on my main die set. I fix this with my own version of monkey block mounted to a 3” steel plate on the floor so I can really beat the hell out of it to square it up. This works but I need something better than this. How much improvement will I get if I shoulder first with a shouldering spring tool? I’ll be making a larger tenon tool, one that goes from .75 to .38 in five steps. I’m not sure if I’d be better off making a shoulder tool first. What say you master smiths!

Is there any reason for not forging some things cold, assuming the following; You have the force available to do this i.e. 100lb hammer, Wear on the tools is not an issue either because they are much harder and tougher than the mild steel being forged ,or replacing them is a non issue. The amount of material be moved is small and there aren’t quality issues like cold shunts, the appearance is as good or better than the look when forged hot. There are a number of positive reasons for doing this that are obvious, to people on this forum, so I won’t bother listing them. I’m thinking of things like pattern embossing along the length of bars as an example. Your thoughts on this please…. And no I’m not worried about peeing the bed for hammering metal cold!

Yes please post the spreadsheet I'd use it for sure. I like the squiggle line idea also. Any thing to speed up the process for an old guy with crappy eye sight. Thanks Everyone

I'll try the white out and square punch marks with a little soap stone scrubbed in. And yes I lay it out cold, work with it hot and it goes right back to where it was Thanks guys

Wow very very nice indeed. I'm going to build one or perhaps a straight line style soon, I hope. That needing a third hand growing out of my chest is an issue...still. I'll be looing for the drawings, thanks

What do you all use for making marks on metal that's going to be heated red hot or hotter that can seen? The question is I want to make precise layout marks on bars to be able to form and forge them. The parts are too long so setting stops off my hammer tooling won't work. I need some precision for uniformity of the product, lets say +/- 32nd of an inch. I wish to mark a part and then put in the tool, register it to a witness mark on the tooling, and then hit it. I'm machining a lot of tools in mild and tool steel to forge parts and this issiue is giving me a problem. Everyone has been so helpful in sharing their tips and secrets, how about helping a new brother blacksmith wana be out again. Soap stone and little grind marks are too hard to see, is there anything better than that?

Wow a lot of differing opinions on this. I'm going to try and get away with un heat treated 4140 and see how it holds up. If it looks like its wearing to quickly I'll heat treat it by quenching in oil and and then draw it back to mid 40 RC to get a little hardness an more toughness. I purchased some pre heat treated 4140 today and I'll try using that after forging it. I must say I don't understand the logic of forging a steel with any level of carbon and not doing the normal heat treating process after that. If you heat it up hot enough to forge it you'll be above the transformation temperature for most carbon alloys, except high temp materials like H13 at 1850F. When it cools as you forge it, its going to become hard. If you don't then temper it, don't you then have the worst condition possible? High hardness with a lot of internal stress. You get the benefit of the compressed grain structure but still with very high internal stress. Should you not then temper the material, releaving the stress and getting uniform hardness and toughness.

Syd, I use Vistac because I have it on hand. A lot of folks with many years of running and rebuilding hammers use chain saw bar oil. I think thats a very good choice as well as it has the tackifires that way oil has. the thing I like about the way lube is the addition of the extreme pressure additives, or at least that's what I'm told. Mobil Vactra in another way oil brand also.

Ok I went and tried a little upsetting and here is how it turned out. I first tried upsetting by dropping an 8 foot 3/4 square bar heated orange hot onto a large steel plate on the floor. It bent all over the 4” long heated section… well duh. Tried it again cooling everything but the last inch, this work some but I guess I would need to do 3 or 4 heats to get what I’m after. So tried it again this time using a 6X pneumatic riveting hammer that I have with a 3/4 flat round tool.I really thought the thing would be way too small for the job. Well low a behold it worked like a charm. In one orange heat, held in my 6” leg vice and not even backed up on the other end , it upset like a dream to 1.270. I was VERY surprised. I’m sure with the other end backed up. It will work even better. This took about 45 seconds to do an in only one heat.I tried AGAIN to post pictures without any luck. I’ll try again later.

I’ll throw this out for what it’s worth. I’m not knocking any of other choices for slide way or ram lubricant folks have suggested ( bar oil, motor oil, grease, buggers whatever. If it works for you then why change. That being said, and keep in mind I’m very new to this power hammer game, I’m using way lube, Chevron Vistac because, I have it for my other machine tools and Its made exactly for this application. People in the machining industry would never (I don’t think) use anything but way lube for machine ways and slides in tools costing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Here is a blurb on what I’m using. I could be full of you know what, and if my ram seizes up I’ll let you know. Chevron Way Oils Vistac provide extreme pressure and antiwear protection and have stringiness and oiliness characteristics. As indicated by part of the name, Vistac, these lubricants have an unusual adhesive or tacky quality. It wants to stay on a vertical surface. Chevron Way Oils Vistac reduce leakage and adhere to metal surfaces providing a tenacious lubricant film. Chevron Way Oils Vistac are formulated to meet the critical lubrication demands for the slides and ways of machine tools. Their inherent low coefficient of static friction eliminates stick-slip or jerky motion of sliding parts on machine tools which increase operating efficiency of the tools and smoother overall operation. Due to their adhesiveness, these oils form a tenacious film which resists being wiped away by the slowly moving parallel surfaces of the way or being washed away by cutting fluids. Their antiwear and extreme pressure properties protect the sliding surfaces. These oils also protect cast iron and bronze surfaces from rust and corrosion, and are resistant to oxidation to provide long lubricant life. While on the lubrication subject I’m using grease in all the pin joins with at least 3% moly. The boys operating heavy equipment, think mining shovels, earth movers, equipment costing millions. Use high moly grease on pins and linkages because it stays in place and is formulated for extreme pressures and impact.

The parts are going to be table and bed post legs. Drawing out 3-4 foot and longer lengths would be a problem in this case. I'm going to start off dropping double lengths against a 2" plate on the floor through a tube (to keep them on location) attached to my welding table. I'll see how that goes and be looking around for a used jack or chipping hammer in the mean time. Thank you all for your suggestions and help

Phil, That's some very very nice work, thanks for sharing.

A smart fellow (Peacock) told me yesterday, there is little difference between fear and respect. I operate most everything at some level of fear; Farm equipment, machine tools, wood working equipment , etc. It keeps you alive hopefully ( thank you God) and on your toes most of the time. I rate my fear factor on a scale of 1-10 1 the blender full of margaritas, 10 the forging hammer….scares me just thinking about it. I’m happy you still have all ten fingers Bruce

I posted this in the heat treating section and got views but no replys. Do I need to remove the old post? I’m about to start making tooling, for the 100 lb LG hammer, I just rebuilt and put a brake on. Thanks to Sid at LG, Peacock, and McBruce by the way for your help in this endeavor. So my question is this; I’m going to make most of the tooling; swage blocks, fullers, v blocks and the like, either with spring arms or side bars to attach to the bottom die holding fixture I just machined. Most of the tools will be made of 4140 and sent out for professional heat treating, in the mid 40 RC range. I’ll try to harden and temper some of the simple, smaller tools myself, in quenching oil or canola. So, can I weld the mild steel spring arms or attachment bars on after heat treatment or should they be attached first? I’m not so much worried about breaking tools and having to remake or repair them, as having them fail and come shooting out and killing me BTW.

I ordered the two DVD set xxxxxxxxxxx and worth every penny, at least to me.

I just spent the last two weeks watching Clifton Ralph and Dave Manzer’s RIP DVD’s on power hammer tooling and techniques. Both these videos are well worth the money and time. The Clifton video is a low quality production and not professionally shot but the quality and quantity of information is so valuable you can forget about it not being pretty. I’m sure I could watch Mr. Ralphs work for the next couple years and still pick up information, besides he’s very entertaining and a kick to watch. Kind of like watching a grizzly peel the top off your car, to get at your fried chicken and give you that convertible you always wanted.

I’m about to start making tooling, for the 100 lb LG hammer, I just rebuilt and put a brake on. Thanks to Sid at LG, Peacock, and McBruce by the way for your help in this endeavor. So my question is this; I’m going to make most of the tooling; swage blocks, fullers, v blocks and the like, either with spring arms or side bars to attach to the bottom die holding fixture I just machined. Most of the tools will be made of 4140 and sent out for professional heat treating, in the mid 40 RC range. I’ll try to harden and temper some of the simple, smaller tools myself, in quenching oil or canola. So, can I weld the mild steel spring arms or attachment bars on after heat treatment or should they be attached first? I’m not so much worried about breaking tools and having to remake or repair them, as having them fail and come shooting out and killing me BTW.

I have sent Steve an email request for information on the subject. Thank you Sask.

I'm watching the DVD's from Clifton Ralph while out of town. I can't do much else, so a little further education by the hammerman seems to be the best I can do for now. Phil " Peacock" is making a brake band for me and gave me some very useful safety advice as well. To be honest, the hammer scares the hell out of me so I think thats a fine place to start from. I still need to get some first hand real world education. Anyone in the area of North Idaho or the Phoenix area using a power hammer that I could spend sometime with please let me know.

Peacock can you tell me about how much spring force is required for the brake? When I use my hand applied to the flywheel to stop the free wheel it seems like very little force is required to stop the rotation, but I can't really quantify that. Any Idea would be a big help to me thanks. The nylon strap you use must be pretty thin, " its seat belt material". It moves away from the flywheel anyway. I would love to purchase a section from you, so I can see first hand what you are using and not reinvent the wheel. Thanks for your help.