Anthony San Miguel Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Hello everybody. I know just enough to know that I have a lot more to learn, but as this site has contributed a lot to my short smithing journey I would like to contribute a little something I found interesting while I was in search of something to use as an anvil. I believe others here will also find this interesting.Like most beginning smiths I was in search of a good piece of rail to pound steel on but I happened to get my hands on a whole bunch of it. All different lengths and sizes with various markings, but most was heavy main line rail. I made a few horizontal and a few upright anvils and ground the webbing on some into bottom fullers and shaped the flanges of some into hot cuts. I then began grinding different shapes into the heads of some to use as swages.But I had way more then I needed so while trying to decide what to do with the rest I started researching rr steel composition. I went to different manufacturers websites and called a few manufacturers and found that the general consensus of this website that rr rail is about a 1080 is correct. One rep even read to me the specs of the last shipment of rail that went out and I don't remember the manganese content other than it was high, but I do remember the carbon content was 0.77.Well, here is what I found the most interesting. I found an AREMA (American Railway Engineering and Maintenance-of Way Association) guide for identifying rail defects that lists some of the abbreviations that are stamped into the sides of rail and the HE abbreviation stands for Hyper Eutectoid. Well I have a piece with this stamp in it and I'm using it as a vertical anvil for forging knives primarily. It does a great job as an anvil, but I'm thinking that that piece alone is about 90lbs of great knife steel! I know that I don't know which hyper eutectoid steel it is, but based on its intended use you can probably make a good guess about which ones it isn't. It's constantly stressed and has to be springy and have some flex to not break under load. Maybe 1095? I know there would be a wow factor with some people knowing that they just got a knife that is made from rr track. I know I think it's cool.Anyways, for what it's worth, here are pics of some docs I got some of my info from including the composition guidelines for Mittal, a major manufacturer of rail (the rr rail says AREMA in front of it), and my HE rail anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 hmm there is an Arcelor Mittal foundy right outside El Paso off of I10; I have a student who just switched their major to metallurgy from philosophy that I have encouraged to see if he could intern with them...IIRC NCO swords were forged from Manchurian RRR by the Japanese in WWII. would it be possible to get a clearer read out on the data? I would like to add it to my RR Steel file as another datapoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 hmm there is an Arcelor Mittal foundy right outside El Paso off of I10; I have a student who just switched their major to metallurgy from philosophy that I have encouraged to see if he could intern with them...IIRC NCO swords were forged from Manchurian RRR by the Japanese in WWII. would it be possible to get a clearer read out on the data? I would like to add it to my RR Steel file as another datapoint.If you send me your email address I can email a better copy. Other than that, I was unable to link from the site to this post. Don't know why. I wish it had come out clearer. It's clearer on my computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 Okay, email sent. If it still isn't clear enough I can fax the actually copy but it's at home so I wouldn't be able to fax it until tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 The eutectoid composition on the iron/carbon phase diagram is 0.77%. Hypo eutectoid compositions have less that that and Hyper eutetoid have more. I have audited the ArcelorMittal facility in Steelton, PA becuase that is one of the few shops inthe company that still make the ingots we need for forging. They do make rail their and what I found most interesting is that they have to achieve a hardness in excess of 40 HRC while still keeping the microstructure pearlitic. No martensite or bainite allowed. So, while the compostion of rail is perfectly fine for blades the microstruce is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Now can those alloy(s) be heat treated differently to get martensite or bainite? I can see where the higher carbon would help with wear and wanting the perlitic structure to help with cracking. (right?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 Good morning everybody. After reading Patrick's post (thanks for posting, by the way) my curiosity was further peaked so I had to find out what would happen to my "HE" rail if I tried to harden a piece. Well I cut off a small sliver with a hacksaw because my friend has my bandsaw right now and curiousity didn't allow me to wait for it. I can tell you that it hardened just fine. This was with a crude hardening process for any hyper eutectoid steel. I don't know if my piece of rail was ever under stress from having a train run over it or if the manufacturing process stresses it, but I didn't even normalize it. Just cut a sliver, let soak above non magnetic for about 5 minutes in my brick forge and straight into a large jar of canola oil. The grain is pretty fine. Not as velvety as a good file gets, but still pretty fine, without normalization.In the pictures you can see where I filed it before hardening and it filed surprisingly easy. After hardening and removing the scale a good NOS Simonds file would skate off. Also, there was no flex at all after hardening. Just broke like glass.Here are some pics. It will probably be hard to see the grain structure in these pics, but they were taken with a cell phone and it's the best I could get. When I get my bandsaw back I will cut and experiment a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I spent some time surfing the net doing some superficial reading on eutectic and etuctoid alloies. Eutectic I had a handle on and that's good enough for what I need. Eutectoid on the other hand is an alloy that's LIKE a eutectic alloy. for you folk who haven't looked it up I'll give you a VERY basic run down on eutectic. A eutectic alloy is one where the melting temperature of the alloy is lower than ANY of the constituents. Silver solder is the one that comes to mind right off so for example. Basic simple silver solder is an alloy of silver, and brass and depending on the ratios it can have a melting temperature under 500f. IIRC!Eutectoid alloys are only LIKE that. Evidently some are formed without melting so I don't even know if you can call the alloys.From the brief reading I did I think tossing a eutectoid alloy in the forge and hammering on it will make it something else. Bear in mind that's a guess based on what little I found on the subject and NO I'm not going to the library or trying to make contact with a company metallurgist. It looks like the specifics of Eutectoid alloys is proprietary and nobody's talking.Bearing in mind how little I found out I'd just start playing with and see. Just what you're doing Anthony. I look forward to hearing what you find out.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Iron-Iron Carbide Phase DiagramNote that the eutectic point is at 4.3% carbon. That's where steel (well, we'd call it cast-iron with this much carbon) melts at 2066 °F. The significantly lower melting point makes casting with iron/carbon alloys much less expensive. (I'd also bet it avoids burning the iron in air.)OTOH, the eutectoid point is .83% carbon. That is not the lowest melting point alloy, but it *is* the alloy with the lowest temperature of a full austenite conversion. So, it is a lowest transition point but one that happens entirely in the solid phase. So, it's LIKE (as Frosty points out) a eutectic point but it isn't exactly one because it's not a melting transition rather a transition between lattice arrangements in solid phase.I use alloy here in the general sense: iron/carbon mixture is an alloy, but in blacksmithing we more often use that term to talk about iron/carbon + other metals such as manganese and chromium.Note that a previous post by someone else listed the eutectoid point as .77% carbon. That was a typo or mis-remembering.If you want to see a pretty cool eutectic alloy, look up Field's Metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Maybe we should call iron + carbon an "Alloid?" It is LIKE an alloy.Dad used to have a good time making a spoon out of ceremetric lead and then stirring coffee with it. The looks on people's faces was classic but he wasted a cup of coffee. <sigh>I hope I wasn't too far off in my previous post.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Eric when researching facts for my book, I found near equal amounts of research documentation that supported 0.77% as well as 0.83% figures, even tho I personally support .83---eutectoid point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to cut off a few more pieces of the rail and experiment a little more. I say unfortunately, but not really because I still got to do a lot of other fun smithing related stuff this weekend. When I first got the blacksmithing bug a few months ago it started with a desire to learn to make knives. From what I've gathered, bladesmiths like steels that are close to the eutectoid (around 1075-1084) because they can usually get a good hamon from them. A hyper eutectoid steel to a bladesmith is primarily exciting because of the higher carbon content but they don't usually produce a good hamon for various reasons, one being that some are too shallow hardening. Mr Sells, I know that you are a bladesmith and I'm glad that you jumped in here. I plan on buying your book within the next week. Are my statements in the last paragraph correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Did you folks see this? http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/40952-forging-a-shovel-from-rr-track/Interesting how the rail is cut and also the final test of the shovel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well most bladesmiths don't do hamons. Those that do; it's generally other alloying elements that cause problems by slowing down the quench rate needed to form martensite. Plain steels low in manganese work best and often lower than 1084 (1060 for instance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well most bladesmiths don't do hamons. Those that do; it's generally other alloying elements that cause problems by slowing down the quench rate needed to form martensite. Plain steels low in manganese work best and often lower than 1084 (1060 for instance)I must have been confusing them with stock removal guys. Another thing that I remember reading on one of the forums was that a particular maker made a knife out of rr rail and brought it to a show. It was causing some excitement because it had an unusual finish, kind of like a faint Damascus pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I've seen blades made from the thermite casting sprues that show a "watered pattern" due to large crystals from the melt, more like wootz than pattern welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 You can get hammon from either forged or stockremoval blades, its a result of the diferential quench using an insulating coating. It has nothing to do with weather the blade was cut out and grount from bar or was forged out as a blank and grount (or filed) as TP points out how sharp the demarcation has a lot to do with steel chemestry and finish.patern welded (and builits can either be forged or cut to make blankes) is a diferent animal, but again diferent chemistries result in the layers eroding at diferent rates and finishing to diferent apperances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 You can get hammon from either forged or stockremoval blades, its a result of the diferential quench using an insulating coating. It has nothing to do with weather the blade was cut out and grount from bar or was forged out as a blank and grount (or filed) as TP points out how sharp the demarcation has a lot to do with steel chemestry and finish.patern welded (and builits can either be forged or cut to make blankes) is a diferent animal, but again diferent chemistries result in the layers eroding at diferent rates and finishing to diferent apperances. I understand this. I was responding to Mr Powers' statement that most bladesmiths don't do hamons. I was saying that it may have been stock removal guys that were discussing hamons and eutectoid steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 OK perhaps I should have worded it "most knifemakers don't do hamons" unfortunately I hangout with a lot more bladesmiths than stock removal guys (and try to convert the stockremoval guys when I can...). BTW you could just check out Stormcrow's activity on his profile page instead of doing a search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony San Miguel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 OK perhaps I should have worded it "most knifemakers don't do hamons" unfortunately I hangout with a lot more bladesmiths than stock removal guys (and try to convert the stockremoval guys when I can...). BTW you could just check out Stormcrow's activity on his profile page instead of doing a search.Was it Stormcrow who made the rail knife? That would be pretty cool because he lives in San Antonio, where I live.BTW, although I enjoy making a knife by stock removal I enjoy forging one a little more. One day soon I will be good at both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Another one sliding towards the dark side; the Emperor will be pleased; Bwahahahahahahahahaha (and if Stormcrow's close---go visit! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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