Treadle hammer size questions

[Geoff]

Hello All

I am building a teadle hammer. The anvil is about 75kg and the hammer is about 15 kg. From browsing around the internet there seems to be a big variety to the weight of the hammer. Simple Gade-Marx look-a-like.

Can those who have built and or worked with a treadle hammer please comment of the relative advantages of a lighter or heavier hammer.

I know that the heavier the anvil the better the performance and that the ratio anvil to hammer should be as high as possible. Marc Godbout mentions that his hammer is only about 30lbs (13.5kg) and that gives him faster return on the hammer and so a faster strike rate.

What do the rest of you think?

Thanks Geoff

[Sam Salvati]

You should have solid for the anvil and ram, is it an in line style hammer or similar to the abana? Anvil to ram ratio should be 10:1 at least, with a 100 pound anvil for a 10 pound ram, but then again if all you are doing is using tooling underneath it, the tubing frame and ram design I used works just as good and easier to get than solid (cheaper too).

Edited November 4, 2008 by ApprenticeMan

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on what you plan to use it for; for me I plan to mainly do tooling work where I would like to use a striker, but don't have one. So I will probably build a fairly light inline version.

For heavy stuff there is a triphammer or my large flypress depending on which would better suit.

I've scrounged a 2.54 cm base plate and a 200+ kg anvil piece and some large I beam for the back vertical. What I really need is to get power to the welder and put it all together!

[Geoff]

You should have solid for the anvil and ram, is it an in line style hammer or similar to the abana? Anvil to ram ratio should be 10:1 at least, with a 100 pound anvil for a 10 pound ram, but then again if all you are doing is using tooling underneath it, the tubing frame and ram design I used works just as good and easier to get than solid (cheaper too).

Thanks ApprenticeMan

The anvil and ram are solid. I'll take some picture on the weekend. I am going to do a variety of stuff with it but will try add some weight to the anvil to get the ratio up. All of the material is scrounged except for the bushings and nuts and bolts.

[Marc]

The other thing about a lighter hammer is when using tools. There's more control with chisels, veiners, etc. But my 30+lb hammer still has enough hit to draw down thicker stock quicker than by hand.

But if you're looking to work heavy stuff most of the time, I believe the spare tire power hammer would be the way to go. Lots of scrounge opportunity.

[Geoff]

Hi Marc

I am already on the scrounge for the parts for the pare timre hammer. I have the anvil and some other bits. Lots more scrounging to do.

Thank you for the comments on the treadle hammer. I am happier now with what I am going to finish. The lighter hammer will be better for the stuff that I want to use it for. I'll build the tire hammer when I need something bigger for production type work. Not there yet only get a few hours in the workshop on weekends these days.

[HWooldridge]

I built mine to the old original ABANA plans. The head is 65 lbs (lead filled) and returns as quickly as I want it to. The anvil is a piece of 4x6 heavy wall tubing filled with concrete so I don't know what it weighs but I'm sure it's not 650 lbs (10:1 ratio). I have used this treadle hammer for over 15 years with no complaints.

[Sam Salvati]

Thanks ApprenticeMan

The anvil and ram are solid. I'll take some picture on the weekend. I am going to do a variety of stuff with it but will try add some weight to the anvil to get the ratio up. All of the material is scrounged except for the bushings and nuts and bolts.

You are ten steps ahead of the game! Also notice the location of the linkage on the upper swingarm, the springs are attached back on the end, and the actuator connection point is close to the center pivot. That way the springs balance the other end connected to the ram, so you can keep the connection close to the pivot, getting more work done for less energy expended. Roughly for every 1 inch my foot moves the pedal down, the ram moves 2 inches down.

[Geoff]

Here is a picture of the hammer. Took a lot of scrounging through my store (junk pile) for all the bits and pieces for the linkages. There is still some finishing to do.

I have to make the tools for it as well but the hammer is basically finished. Took about 20 hours to build. If I had used new materials it would have taken less time.

It was a fun project.

[Sam Salvati]

Interesting!!!! How high do you have to lift your leg though Geoff? it looks very very good great job! Can you take some more pictures? I never get tired of pictures of hammers of any type .

[Geoff]

Hi ApprenticeMan

I have no idea how high I lift my leg. It is not uncomfortable for the little bit I have played. I may tune it so that it is a little lower when I am using it. How high do you have to fit your leg?

I'll take more pictures on the weekend if I get there. I still want to give it a coat of paint and finish the tooling. It is not entirely pretty as I bought a new welding machine and need to get it tuned in to get good welds. The paint will also cover the scrounged aspect so that it does not look as if I found the whole thing on a scrap yard.

[Geoff]

Well Finally after many interruptions here is a picture of the completed treadle hammer.

I did some quick forging with it today and I like it. I like the flexibility that I have for soft and hard hits. I can see that I will use it a lot. My wife says I have to make sure that I use both legs so one does not get stronger than another. I am sure that I will want to make improvements as I go along. Mainly making more tooling for it. It has one problem I have some play in the linkages and I will have to solve that one way or another, but that is going to be worked around for now.

Here is a picture of it.

[Frosty]

Looks pretty good Geoff.

I'd put a stop on it so it doesn't lift so high myself, something simple like a strap, etc. but that's me.

Your wife doesn't want one of your legs more developed than the other so you don't end up walking in circles. You know, take the garbage out and end up bringing back before getting to the curb.

Frosty

[Geoff]

Thanks Frosty

What are the benefits of not lifting it so high? I left it like it was as I wanted to keep the head out of the way when or if I wanted to use the anvil for some thing else.

Blessed Christmas to all.

[John B]

You don't have to perform the CanCan when you use it, 'cos the pedal stroke is less and pedal sits lower to put your foot on.

Happy Holiday Nice job.

[Mills]

I think most of us don't consider using the anvil with out the hammer as well. On my TH since I have leg problems, keeping the treadle low is good. But I can't use the anvil stand alone, never even thought of that. Now that you mention it it would be possible for your design to work as a stake holder as well.

[HWooldridge]

My treadle bar is 27" from the floor, which works for me but has given a few visitors to my shop a little trouble (I'm 6'0 and long legged so I'm not doing the splits). Like anything, it takes getting used to - I typically place my foot on it and the weight of my leg pulls it down a few inches. I then get some additional tension from muscles on the rebound as the hammer head returns to battery after each stroke. The sweet spot on this hammer starts about 2 inches above the anvil and goes up to about 9-10 inches but that is fine as I use my TH almost exclusively with set tools and swages. Subsequently, the very long 27" stroke will allow tall tools like the blacksmith's helper to be put under the ram along with the hot material and still get a hard hit.

I have worked on treadle hammers that had only 10-12" of stroke and one of the problems was stack height of work and tools, which limited how much real momentum could be practically generated in one hit.

[Frosty]

It's more tiring to lift your leg beyond a certain point than the increased force is worth. It's a point of diminishing returns thing. Also as the treadle angle increases your leverage against it decreases so you lose force that way as well.

A treadle hammer isn't usually considered a heavy forging tool, it's more like having a third hand or helper so you can use both hands. Sure it hits harder than you can swing by hand but not so much you should think of it as a heavy drawing or deep die tool.

Frosty

[HWooldridge]

It's more tiring to lift your leg beyond a certain point than the increased force is worth. It's a point of diminishing returns thing. Also as the treadle angle increases your leverage against it decreases so you lose force that way as well.

A treadle hammer isn't usually considered a heavy forging tool, it's more like having a third hand or helper so you can use both hands. Sure it hits harder than you can swing by hand but not so much you should think of it as a heavy drawing or deep die tool.

Frosty

I agree with your comments but everyone is built differently and just like anvil heights, the treadle bar is one of those things that can be comfortable for one person and not for another. I think raising your thigh to a position parallel to the ground is about right for a starting position - more than that may tend to unbalance and make you tired. The bottom of my foot is 22-23 inches off the ground when my thigh is level so a taller treadle puts only a little tension on my leg. My treadle height is adjustable and I will probably drop it down as I get older - especially if I have trouble putting my foot into position quickly without becoming imbalanced.

I'm certainly not recommending my setup for everyone but it's comfortable for me. I do not use my treadle for heavy drawing but it does get a workout with fullers so I want the heaviest hit I can muster with each lick.

[medieval]

I built a parallel-arm treadle hammer about 12 years ago. It has a 90# head made of 4" square tubing filled with lead. At first it didn't get much use, because I didn't know what to use it for. The day that it became invaluable was when I needed to make some hammers, for repousse work. I could not get enough power with a hand held hammer to puch a hole in 1 1/2" stock. The treadle hammer makes it (almost) easy.
The return spring is a balancing mechanism and the tension setting determines how fast it returns to the up position. No matter how heavy the ram is you need to overcome that tension when you use it. I once tried a hammer that was being used in a demonstration. The guy used it for chasing type work. My first impression was that it required more effort to operate than my hammer, and that, the farther it moved from its rest position the more effort was needed to bring it down. :mad:
As a designer, I can tell you that there a variety of factors in the design and setup of a treadle hammer. :confused: Linkage position (on the treadle as well as the parallel arm), spring position on the treadle arm, and where the anvil is relative to the ram. If you decide to build an in-line hammer you will also need to take into account the pivot points of the rocker, linkage length, and that it will have more drag than a parralell-arm design :confused:
I have made tooling to adjust the height of the top of the anvil. This allows me to use tall, or short tooling. If you plan to do lightweight work with the hammer, I suggest you include a seat for working as it gets very tiring to stand on one foot for very long. The seat should be removeable so that it doesn't get in the way when you want to use the hammer at full force.
I don't mean to deter you from building anything, just that there is more to building tools (simple as well as complicated) than meets the eye.

[Geoff]

I did not realise there was such a wealth of experience with treadle hammers. Mine is the second one I have ever seen other than on the net.

The treadle height for me puts my knee about level. My brother visited today and used it for drawing out a rail road psike to make a knife and did struggle with the height more than I do.

I have tensioned the spring so that there is not a lot of force required and that makes it easy to control the return of the ram so if I want short gentle taps I can do that easily. I can also deliver significant hits if I want to.

I also made up some fullers today. I am blown away by how useful the hammer is for forging. It was one heat and I had spread out the end of 1/4x1" and then one more heat and necked it down, with almost no effort.

I also necked down 0.9 mm thick tube for a candle. That was a bit more of a challenge as just a little too much and you have flattened it. But I could get very gentle hits and managed to neck it down.

The versatility of this hammer is wonderful.

Thank you to all for the advice and for those who have put plans and ideas on the web.