I scored a whatsit

[whitewill1412]

I just got a pair of tongs and a leg vise mount from a guy on Facebook.  Now I don't have to make a mount for my second vise.  I don't know what these tongs are for though.  They are long.  37 1/2" long.  Very strange jaws.  What are they?

 

[Frosty]

Pickup tongs though they're awfully long. You use them to reach into a fire to pick up a piece without breaking the fire up. They're really good for snagging onto almost any shape though they don't hold solidly enough to forge with. Then you transfer the piece to fitted tongs, flats, cup, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.

[whitewill1412]

Ok.  Thanks.  Does anyone have an idea why they are so long?

[JHCC]

Pickup tongs in general are longer than most other tongs so that you can grab a piece out of the fire without having to get too close to the heat. They're also great for picking things up from the floor (especially hot things) without having to bend over. The shape of the jaws imparts a certain amount of spring to the grip and also allows you to grab a wide variety of sizes. Remember that all it needs to do is to get the workpiece out of the fire to where you can grab it with your working tongs, so it doesn't need to hold the piece securely while the latter is being forged.

I suspect that this particular pair may have been used in a larger industrial-type forge, where the smith needed a greater reach to get the workpieces out of a larger forge or furnace.

I've got two pairs of these, both of which I made myself. The first pair wasn't quite beefy enough at the pivot and was also a little too short; the second pair is much better.

[whitewill1412]

I'm thinking I might end up shortening the handles and modifying the jaws to make them more useful for me.  I have a whole set of do it yourself tong blanks to work on as well.  So many things to do and so little time.  If only I could hit the lottery and retire

[JHCC]

Leave these alone until you've finished making up the DIY blanks. You might find that they're just what you need. (I wouldn't have known how useful pick-up tongs can be until I tried a pair at a friend's forge.)

[whitewill1412]

You read my mind.  I was thinking the same thing.  They are some cool looking tongs too

Edited May 9 by Mod34
Removed unnecessary quote

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have a pair of tongs like that and we used them to retrieve small fired clay items like candle holders and small necked flower vases from the kilns. Also another pair with much larger jaws to pick up fired pots etc. Here is a picture of a couple and a set of hammer tongs that I took for another thread. The two on the right are kiln tongs and the jaws are easy to adjust for what ever shape being worked with.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[BillyBones]

IDF&C, i was thinking that same thing with the kilns, maybe glass work, or some sort of blast furnace, something along those lines. 

Then i also thought maybe the guy who made them just did it for no reason other than look at how long i drew these out to be. 

[whitewill1412]

I was also thinking they might be good for grabbing a crucible full of molten metal

[JHCC]

Maybe a very small crucible, but you don't want to be messing around with picking up molten metal with tongs that aren't beefy enough for the job. Dropping a solid piece is one thing; splashing 2000° liquid is something else entirely.

[whitewill1412]

Yeah I ordered a small 1lb crucible for melting down copper.  I want to try shaping copper since I think it would be good forging practice as it should be easier than steel

[George N. M.]

WW, forging copper or copper alloys is rather different than forging hot iron or steel.  Copper and bronze will work harden fairly quickly and crack and you have to anneal it early and often.  That means heating it up and then quenching it in water which will soften it and you can go at it again with the hammer.  The phenomenon is the opposite of quenching carbon steel.  Copper and some bronzes (e.g. bronze brazing rods) can be forged hot.  Some bronze alloys and most brass cannot be forged hot because there is lead in the alloy and if you hit it hot it will just crumble.  The lead is included to make it easier to machine.  If you order new metal check the alloy mix.  If it is scrap just experiment.

I would say that you have to hit cold copper or bronze harder to get the same deformation as hot mild steel.  Hot bronze is softer.

Also, you cannot use color to judge temperature very well with copper and bronze hot forging.  It will turn a dull red and then quickly melt.  I use a counting to time it in my propane forge (one, one thousand, two one thousand, etc.) and number of blower handle turns in my coal/coke forge.  You'll have to experiment to get the feel of it.  It takes more concentration and fewer distractions than forging steel.  I can talk and forge and listen to music/radio with steel but with bronze I have to have silence and have my full attention on the hot metal.  It is much less forgiving than steel.

GNM

[whitewill1412]

Thanks George.  I didn't know all that.  Still gonna give it a go.  I think it will be fun.  About how long do you heat in the gas forge?  That's what I'm using

[George N. M.]

Will, time depends on size and the temperature of the metal.  For a 1/4" diameter brazing rod I would leave it in about 8-10 seconds on the initial (cold) heat and probably about 4-5 seconds (counting) on subsequent heats.  You can tell if it is soft enough to forge with the first hammer blow.  For example, if on the 1st heat it was still a bit hard on the first heat I would put it back in for about 3 more seconds.  If you see a dull red color get it out NOW because it is about to melt.

The larger the piece the the slower it heats and the more forgiving it is.

As I said before, if you are working cold anneal early and often.  If you are say, raising a bowl for a ladle using a swage block, I would say that you should anneal 3-4 times.  Better to anneal too often rather than not enough.

G

[whitewill1412]

If you are say, raising a bowl for a ladle using a swage block....

You're speaking Greek to me.  I'm new here lol.  I was gonna start by making some vise jaw covers for cold work grip.  I'm on very basic right now.

I get what you're saying about keeping a close eye on things in the forge

[George N. M.]

Will, I meant making a dome or bowl shape by pounding on the inside of it over a hollow, bowl shaped void.  It stretches the metal of a circular disk to create a portion of a sphere.  If you don't have a metal form to use it can be done on a wooden one but if you are working hot it will smoke.  It will smoke less if the wood is wet or the wood green.

GNM

[whitewill1412]

Swage is one of those big tables with all the holes in it right?  I've seen those in videos and pictures, but haven't actually seen someone using one.  Do you use like hardie tools in it?

[Frosty]

Copper alloys work harden abruptly, the mechanism is entirely different than for iron alloys. You can take copper as far as you can with the first blow, meaning if you can hit it hard enough you can turn a 1" cube into foil in one blow. Annealed copper is pretty soft, it'll really move for you on the first blow, move good on the second and begin to resist on the third, fight you on the forth and likely break on the 4th or 5th. 

I don't get the quench from red to anneal I've air cooled from red or taken it out of the forge to the anvil and get 6 or so good blows. Brass or bronze is harder to forge, it hardens abruptly but some alloys want to crumble like cottage cheese under the hammer no matter what. Learning to evaluate strange copper alloys is part of the game.

Copper is fun to forge but funny to read. . . sort of. Whack your knob with your biggest sledge hammer first blow and reduce till the 3rd blow and anneal. It doesn't matter how hard you hit it the first time. Honest.

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

A swage block is a small or large piece of iron or steel with various shapes and holes in its face(s) and sides.  Most of the older, larger, industrial swage blocks have various sized and shaped holes through them.  They can be used as backing (bolsters) for punching various shaped holes but I think one of their primary functions was lightening the block's weight.  Many smaller, modern swage blocks have forms for things like ladles, spoons, etc. which are needed more by hobby smiths.

"Swage" just means "shaper."  A tool or tools used to say, make a groove in a piece of hot metal, are either top or bottom swages depending on how they are used.  They can be used together or singly.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:18 PM, George N. M. said:

That means heating it up and then quenching it in water which will soften it and you can go at it again with the hammer. 

Just to clarify: it’s not the quenching that softens the copper, but the heating. Quenching to room temperature allows you to handle it with bare hands. 

On 5/11/2024 at 2:17 PM, Frosty said:

Copper alloys work harden abruptly, the mechanism is entirely different than for iron alloys. You can take copper as far as you can with the first blow, meaning if you can hit it hard enough you can turn a 1" cube into foil in one blow. Annealed copper is pretty soft, it'll really move for you on the first blow, move good on the second and begin to resist on the third, fight you on the forth and likely break on the 4th or 5th. 

This applies to working annealed copper at room temperature. If you start forging at red heat, you’ve got a lot more working time as it cools down. Just make sure that you’ve got good tongs, as copper conducts heat too well to hold the workpiece in your hand while forging. 

[Frosty]

Agreed, hot forging copper lets you do some amazing things.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

On 5/11/2024 at 2:05 PM, whitewill1412 said:

one of those big tables with all the holes in it right?

That’s a “platen table”, sometimes called an “Acorn table” after one of the better-known manufacturers. 

[George N. M.]

John, you, of course, are correct.  The heat anneals the copper and you can just let it cool by letting it sit or quenching it.

How often do you have to anneal your sheet copper when doing repousse work and how hot do you get it?

G