TheCowBear Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 I've been attempting to blacksmith for a couple years now and this is the forge I started with: It had these burners: I have since built this: After reading a decent portion of the burners 101 topic I think the burners I have will work ok for the new forge, but I was wondering 1) how to make them more efficient and 2) the best way to mount them without having access to a welder? I haven't found much on the forum about physically mounting burners just about angles and depths, but not ways to attach them. That might be a failure of my search skills, so sorry if that is the case and this specific question has been answered a billion times. I am planning on adding Kast-O-Lite 30 to the new forge, but one of the forums said to drill holes for burners before doing that step so I'm posting before doing that part. I did add blue rigidizer but it looks like it may have drained all the way out. My shop is 50 min south of where I live and I haven't been able to check since I was sent these pictures. My goal with the new forge is to be able to use it to forge weld and heat treat as finances to build multiple styles are limited. Any other suggestions y'all have in regards to the build would be grand as well. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 It's kind of tough for us to answer the question of how to mount the burner without being able to see much of how/where your latest forge is placed. Without trying to sound too sarcastic, you *do* have a forge. If you have some flat steel you can always heat it up and bend it into the shape you want to hold your burners where you want. If you've progressed enough to punch a couple holes and set a couple rivets it shouldn't be horribly challenging for you. There are many ways to hold them in place without welding. One easy solution is to use hose clamps to fasten the burners to whatever you built to support them. Some people have used conduit clamps. Baling wire would even work. Your imagination is the limiting factor. All you have to accomplish is reliably holding them in position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 Welcome aboard Cow Bear, glad to have you. Making a couple mounts for the burners is a mighty minor problem for a Blacksmith to need help with. My first burner mounts were very similar to what Buzz describes above and I used hose clamps. EZ PZ. What is wrong with your existing forge? It looks like you have plenty of refractory blanket to add another layer or completely reline it. What don't you like about it? What are the dimensions of the T burners, the air ports look awfully large but that could be the camera angle. What are the T's dimensions? If they are as large as they look they're probably a causing a problem welding. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 On 3/15/2024 at 11:35 AM, TheCowBear said: After reading a decent portion of the burners 101 topic You might want to read the Forges 101 thread for answers on how to mount burners; not the Burners 101 thread, which is devoted to how to build burners. Although Buzzkill and Frosty have given you good answers, already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCowBear Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 Thank you and here are more pictures 1) is the set up without the burners attached (excuse the clutter please) and 2) is the burner inside the "T" I did read the first few pages of the Forges 101 thread, guess I didn't make it far enough. I'll remedy that. Frosty, I do have enough blanket to reline it, I don't know if I'll have enough Kastolite. But the main problem is that it isn't quite wide enough to make some of the tools I was making. I could turn them on the diagonal but they still caught and tore some of the refractory cement off. I will probably still reline it if I have enough clay, but I would need to halve the suggested thicknesses of the blanket and clay. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Taking a picture of a tape measure across the T doesn't tell me anything useful. The dimensions are on the side of the T. I wasn't clear before, the dimensions of a T burner include the ID and length of the mixing tube and actual dimensions of the T fitting plus the dimension of the mig contact tip gas jet. If you use a mig contact tip for the gas jet. If not I need to know what and how you made the gas jet. If I were to speculate using your tape measure pic I'd guesstimate the air intake port to be somewhere between 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" which means the mixing tube would need to be between 1" and 1 1/4" ID. Bigger is not necessarily better unless you don't maintain the ratios. The math is in the Illustrated T burner instructions in the burner section. Before you start experimenting (something I encourage by the way) you need to know how and why these things work. Most of the people posting T burner, how to videos online do NOT know what they're doing, the flame may look good but almost every one I've looked at has been a serious underperformer. Some even have choke plates "for Mother Moose's SAKE!" to get them to burn okay. Here's another thought. If you need a wider forge than your square I'd suggest you consider a D shaped forge. It has a nice wide flat floor and the walls and roof are an arch. This maximizes useable floor space and the arch encourages a strong swirl in the flame for more even heating. I've made a couple improvements to the T burner build that isn't in the illustrated plans posted here. I check in almost every day, if you have questions please feel free to give me a shout. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCowBear Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 My bad. The burners say 1 1/4-304. I didn’t build them, they came with the square forge that I bought off of KSL so I’m not sure how the gas jet was made. I going make it more of a D shape by making the Kastolite a bit thicker in the center on the bottom so it ends up with a floor that is less curved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Hmmmm, that looks like 1 1/4" or 305mm and going by your tape measure pic, I'm guessing it's the run not the drop. Run being what we use as the air intake and drop would be the mixing tube. If you're talking plumbing terms. What's the diameter and length of the mixing tube? Measure the inside and tell us please, it's too hard to see some things on my monitor. To raise and flatten the floor use your ceramic fiber refractory, thinning (feather) the edges where it meets the walls so there is a smooth transition. Forge floors do not need to be thick unless you are putting heavy projects in it or you have really rough touch. 1/4" works well on the walls and roof, 3/8" is plenty for the floor, Kastolite 30 is my preference of course. Mike's simple mix of fumed silica spritzed on buttered refractory wool works a treat. Buttering (pre-wetting) allows the fluid rigidizer mix to flow along the fibers where it will collect at intersections and flow much deeper into the blanket. Butter the rigidized insulating liner before you apply the Kastolite as well and before you apply the final kiln wash. You can ask a mason why you butter before laying mortar or brick, stone, etc. I didn't see anything informative on the KSL site other than a vast array of real . . . bargains. For sale sites are common everywhere, no biggy. We'll get you up and smooshing hot steel shortly, hopefully without costing too much. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 It also looks like someone used a lathe to cut out the threads, but then left an abrupt lip on the air intake. If the burner has the performance you're looking for it's probably not a big deal, but "features" like that can cause extra turbulence which may negatively impact the functionality of the burner and/or the air to fuel ratio at different pressures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Now that you mention it I see that too Buzz. Turning the threads out of T burner intakes resulted in poorer performance so I stopped those experiments. I tried turning the threads out of a couple thread protectors and tapered a couple couplers for no or negative effect. I have a skyball hypothesis about why internal threads seem to make better burners. I THINK the air/mix flowing over threads results in a Bernoulli effect lowering psi and friction by creating a barrier layer at the tops of the threads similar to how a wing works. No tests, experiments or researching, it's just the picture the voices draw in my brain. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/19/2024 at 10:30 AM, Buzzkill said: an abrupt lip on the air intake. If the burner has the performance you're looking for it's probably not a big deal, but "features" like that can cause extra turbulence which may negatively impact the functionality of the burner and/or the air to fuel ratio at different pressures. External lips greatly interfere with air intake. Probably, an internal lip would not be equally bad, but pretty close to it. Ironically, the threads will not create drag, because they will create a barrier affect, forcing the incoming air to flow away from their tips, will a single ip will do the opposite; it will create a ring of vortices, which inhibits air flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCowBear Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 The burner pipe is 8” long with a 3/4” interior diameter. I did butter the wool before spraying with the rigidizer, but I didn’t have a torch big enough to heat the inside to red hot so I just let it dry on its own, will that be a problem? I will keep all of this in mind when I eventually build new burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkertim Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 The silica particles in the rigidizer will have clumped together at the points where the ceramic blanket fibres touch, as the water in the rigidizer evaporates. When the fibres are heated to orangey/red with a burner, the silica particles melt and flow between the fibres at the points when they touch. When the Ceramic blanket then cools, the melted silica hardens and locks all the fibres together, "Rigidizing" the blanket, so it can then be coated with Kastolite or some other flame-facing coating. The rigidizer won't work correctly unless it is heated to the melting point of the silica particles. Hope this helps. Tink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Morning Tink or I suppose it's evening on your side of the big salty. Well said. It must be brought to at least medium red heat, your burner will do the job nicely, even if it isn't a top performer. Some guys have used Bernzomatic type torches to good effect though it takes a lot longer. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Perhaps there is a point of confusion. While heating up the inside of the forge with your burner would be the fastest way to melt these little silica particles in place, most of us just pass the burner over the inside in patches. All at once, or area by area; either way will work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCowBear Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Mikey, thank you there was definitely confusion there. A couple places have said not to use your burner as a torch and I was trying to decide if this qualified as using it as a torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Okay; I definitely advise you to go ahead and use your burner as a torch. Pay no attention to what those other guys said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Oh those OTHER GUYS! If one were to describe the environment of online burner plans, advice, etc. it would (or should) be, "Confusion." Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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