angiolino Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I recommend repairing a roof with a DIY metal roof: Hi, I live and work in an old 1950s building. I have problems with rain infiltration, I have tried to repair it in a thousand ways with hot asphalt and bituminous sheaths. I'm considering making a shed, a metal shelter and putting press-bent galvanized iron panels on it, I should make the frame supporting the trusses in essence, could you kindly provide me with some suggestions and solutions, thanks larga 15 metri lunga 18 metri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 In my opinion your strategy is asking for a LOT more trouble than either it is worth, or for the work you will need to put in. The proposed raised roof (above the existing flat roof) will be subject to weather loads which will require a structural engineer to perform calculations to ensure the new structure is adequate and the tie-ins to the existing can handle both the weight and moment forces. You will be making new penetrations through the existing roof for each new column as well. What makes you think you can make those any more water tight than the existing roof? Also, what keeps weather from running along the rest of the roof into your new "shed" area. In my opinion this is an extremely bad idea. This is work for a professional roofer, not an amateur. Flat roof waterproofing is a serious challenge. Your pitches have to be correct to the roof storm system drains, and those drains have to be correctly designed (both primary and secondary) and properly maintained (I didn't see ANY roof drains in your photos). Leaks can be very tough to locate as moisture tends to run in a variety of directions due to the building structure under the roof membrane. You can even get water damage from interior condensation under some circumstances that has no relation to water leaks. If I were the building owner I would be looking to remove the existing roofing over the entire flat area and replace it with an EPDM roof membrane and a properly designed storm system. Why are the plumbing roof vents so outrageously tall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I'm not even sure what I'm looking at. Are the pictures the top of the existing roof? What is the structure that appears attached to it in the background? If that is the roof it looks like a real mash up of repairs instead of a single homogenous roof membrane. I don't think that can help but leak. I have to agree with Latticino, you need a proper roof. If you want a pitch, I sure would, specify that to the engineer and building companies you you ask to bid on the job. This is definitely NOT a job for someone who isn't a licensed builder. There is just too much that needs to be done CORRECTLY. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 look I'm always there welding sheaths now the wind has torn a portion of them I have a flooded room, I had thought of cutting the reinforcing bars, making a frame adhering to the attic with a small slope and screwing the roofing panels onto it it's a life I've been fighting It costs a lot to call the company. I can't afford the expense. My financial resources are minimal. Thank you. Best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Best regards right back to you. Listen, I'm a professional engineer and I'm giving you some free engineering advice. You can take it or leave it as you like. If whatever translator you are using made my earlier response to complicated I'll simplify: Cutting into an existing roof to put on an addition is a job for a professional contractor, architect and structural engineer. If you take a shortcut and DIY the work, who takes on the liability if there is a failure? I have a friend who got a substantial settlement when a contractor's ladder blew off a roof, fell and broke their leg as they were walking next to the shopping center where the construction was going on. What will you do if a section of your metal roof gets blown off and kills someone? How will you rig the, likely, 4" x 4" tubular steel columns and beams up to the roof (and in place once you get them there)? Will you be renting a crane? Will it be welded or bolted construction (if the former, how will you power the welder on the roof, if the latter how will you certify the bolts will be correctly torqued and hold)? Do you have insurance for the additional workers you will need for this? Actually there are too many potential construction issues to cover... Do you have any idea the implications of "cutting the reinforcing bars"? Got to assume they are there for a reason. Your strategy of putting a pitched roof above the flat roof will not work unless you can either cover the entire flat area with a pitched roof cover, or can build walls from your new roof to the existing one and bond them well enough so there will be no leaks. You have already established you don't know how to waterproof the existing system, so how will that change? I see two paths here: If you own the building, take out a loan and get a proper, new flat roof installed. As previously noted I would recommend a monolithic EPDM membrane. If you don't own the building, and the landlord refuses to make it weather-tight, move somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 I don't have all this money, they won't give it to me to cut the bull's head since the house is old and no one is going to build on it. I had thought of cutting the reinforcing bars that come out and bolting plates to them in correspondence with the reinforced concrete beams. of waiting and to weld uprights onto them, not high columns, to give the slope to the pitch of the light roof is a mammoth job, they sell 6 linear meter beams, climbing on them would be a titanic undertaking, I had thought of creating a lifting scaffold to facilitate this work but it's all up in the air, otherwise I'll have to buy rolls of tar, weld the sheath next time, bad weather will tear them away, the gusts of wind and rain are violent, like a firemen's hose, I'm at the end of the line and I've wasted time and material money, you understand well, I'm desperate, thank you, sorry for the inconvenience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Sorry for your troubles, but I still don't see how the EPDM roof (ideally with correct tapered insulation and updated roof drain solution) will cost substantially less than the structural work you are contemplating. I appreciate that you like to build things yourself, but hopefully you understand that some things are not appropriate or cost effective to DIY (Did you ever fabricate your exercise equipment?). It sounds like you may own the building (my condolences). Please note the following: EPDM ($4.25–$12 per square foot): This is the rubber roofing material with the longest track record, and EPDM rubber roofing is also the most cost-effective. It has a life span of at least 20 years, but under the right conditions can last up to 60 years. I don't know what the building itself is worth, but if you don't get that roof fixed, the value will certainly drop. If you have other tenants you may end up being liable for damage to their property or person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 It's not that I like to build things myself, it's that necessity is the sharpest tool of ingenuity. I have to make a virtue out of necessity to create a work as illustrated by you. Between projects and permits I get about 25,000 euros, a figure that I don't have. I would simply like to put the strut beams anchored to the attic we weld the purlins across the beams and screw the panels to reduce costs, I understand well that if hurricane katrina comes and is not well secured it will fly away like a kite thanks anyway for your precious opinion https://farsuperov.life/product_details/6280897.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Hard to tell with the translator if you are being sarcastic. I have tried to be straightforward and answer your question to the best of my ability. The firm I work for designs many roof upgrades and repairs, and the architects I discussed your "solution" with were uniformly appalled. Around here you would certainly need a building permit to put up the kind of structure you are contemplating, the cost would most likely far exceed the roofing update with EPDM, and you would need professionally stamped drawings certifying that the design met code requirements (which you would be very unlikely to get since the concept is flawed). I suspect it is the same for Italy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I highly doubt he is being sarcastic, he has posted a lot of requests in the past and been pretty cordial, even if he didn't get the answer he was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I do hope he appreciates the advice. It was just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Angiolino isn't being sarcastic Latticino. He lives very rural in Italy and doesn't have professional builders, engineers, etc. anywhere close. Just buying gas for a round trip to a town large enough to buy building materials is frighteningly expensive. Fuel is 3-4x what it is here. As you surmise he is no engineer so he has to tackle this stuff himself. You're perfectly right his drawings are unworkable to the point of being a neighborhood disaster in a high wind. He has altered them in an attempt to adjust to your critique but like so many amateur It can be very hard to get their original mental image out of their thinking so they modify it. I understand your frustration Latticino, I've felt it myself but he has to work with what he has and I've helped Angiolino a few times, I have it from here. Okay? Angiolino Amico mio: What you have drawn up WILL NOT WORK. As said already you need a monolithic (one piece) membrane on a pitch (sloped) surface. That doesn't require vertical posts and steel beams, etc. Your safest bet is to put a small riser over the strongest edge of the roof, maybe against a wall. Say 50cm. high. From there run stringers to a flat plate at the far edge. Screw plywood to the stringers and cover it with a good water proof membrane EPDM or the equivalent being the best. Then cover it with corrugated tin or similar to your liking. Keep is as low as possible so wind can't catch it, your above drawings will catch wind from any of 3 directions. Plywood or OSB roof sheeting is more than up to supporting any load you're likely to get, our roof is 5/8" OSB type sheathing and has been taking snow loads up to 4" without a squeak. Doors jam if the roof gets overloaded. Supporting the stringers in the center is as easy as laying a flat plate across the roof under them and building up under the stringers. Lumber and wedge or cut and weld structural steel. Angle, channel, tubing, etc. Remember to match the angle to the slope. The low side needs to be where water can drain off the roof. Hopefully you can simply extend the roofing over the edge and let it fall or maybe install a rain gutter. If there is no side where water can flow over the edge you'll need to direct it to a place it can drain. That's about all I can suggest at this point. I'm exhausted and a bit brain dead right now. More later, Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 9 hours ago, angiolino said: This is certainly a better look at what you want, but you do realize that it needs to cover the entire flat roof, right? If you just think you are going to cover a small section (as I suspect you intend), unless you are very clever with channeling water and lucky with the existing roof slope, you will not remove the weather infiltration problem. You have already indicated that you can't repair the existing roof, so you will likely have trouble flashing in any new penetrations. If the perimeter of your new structure rests on the existing roof surface, and that seam leaks when your roof fills up with water, you are going to get water into the same gaps you had before. If you make new holes through the existing roof membrane to attach your structure to the building framing you will have new and potentially larger penetrations that water can come in. Of course if you are absolutely certain that your asphalt membrane would be weather tight if you could only solve the uplift of the material during high winds (and if you do have high winds, you best consider that in your design and in particular the method of attachment tot he existing structure) there may be easier alternatives. I can likely look up installation instructions for you if you don't have detailed ones for asphalt roofs. I'm a mechanical engineer so I don't really have this at my fingertips, but have you ever heard of a ballasted roof? Look it up. I still don't understand why you are personally responsible for repairs if you don't own the building. Unfortunately I don't read Italian, so I am not certain whether the photos are of framing systems the OP has built, or just examples from the internet of frames he likes. They all seem sturdy and well constructed, but the critical connection points to the existing structure are not shown. It is a lot easier to set such frames down at ground level than it is 30' up in the air without a crane or an experienced crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 in essence the house is an inheritance the other heirs don't care, (if they all don't care it falls down I'm poor so for me it's only one resource that I possess) I'm not being sarcastic obviously the translator isn't doing his duty I understand that I should consult an engineer, I just found out the crane costs €2000 per day to rent, I have to find a simple, economical and feasible solution, I welded the bituminous sheath but in summer the temperature exceeds 40 degrees therefore between extreme heat and strong wind it tears it away, when there is strong wind the action of the wind added to the rain is like the fire hose causes a lot of damage, sorry if I seemed sarcastic and rude thanks for your precious advice :EPDM waterproof membrane??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Are you currently experiencing ponding on the roof (significant amounts of standing water)? If so a better system of storm drainage piping might be very helpful. Still, there are no quick and easy solutions to this problem. Please be careful to monitor the condition of the structure and roof. Water damage like this can be life threatening if it goes too far. An EPDM rubber membrane roof typically does not require ballasting. Between that, the most likely required tapered insulation, and new storm drainage piping, this is not a project for a novice contractor. It also is a significant undertaking, so you will likely need a construction permit, which could mean needing engineering drawings. I suspect you will not even be able to afford those. Perhaps you can look into getting a grant? I think an asphalt roof can be retroactively ballasted once it has been made watertight. This should help with your wind issue. If you can get the existing asphalt membrane sealed correctly and then ballast it, it should go a long way towards addressing your problem. This is also a fairly easy DIY solution, though hard work transporting and spreading the ballast. Of course if you currently have ponding, that won't solve all your problems. If you can identify the locations of the ponding, you could also put in some new roof drains and pipe them to your storm system. Seems like a pretty sizable building. Aren't there other tenants that pay rent? The building should have some intrinsic value. Maybe discussing this with the other heirs would be worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 The asphalts remelt probalbly due to the heat. I have done epdm myself on a very small roof (gardenshed). Don't do it on sunny days is my recommendation. (I start to sweat when I start thinking about it). But you need some pitch to drain te water off. They way the roof looks on the photo's is what latticino is discribing. You can always put stones (round ones) on the roof to stop it from blowing off. Take white or light grey colored ones and you have less heat. Looking at the roof, i don't think there is any waterdrain, the water is supposed to run of at one side of the roof (if the pitch is correct). Before putting the epdm, it is better to remove the asphalt (if possible) to see the structure underneed. If there is damage to whatever is underneed. Repair before covering it. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 do you recommend the sheath? I had fantasized about putting struts attached to the pillars of the protruding wall and welding box sections to them. What do you think? Do you think it's feasible? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Angiolino: I can't get a translation program to work on your drawings. I assume they are cut and paste graphics from a drawing in another program. I can't translate the text in your drawings. Are the Pilastros part of a different building or a masonry wall of your building? Is the low side of your drawing actually higher than the existing roof and stopping before the edge? The scale of your drawing doesn't match the dimensions you've written. 50cm. at the pilastros side makes the 9.50 meter dimension way wrong. When I measure and compare off my monitor. The width is 6.1x the height you drew instead of 19x. 50cm x 9.5m width makes the width 19 the height of your proposed new roof. Drawing things to scale is important when you're planning and building. Were I considering your job I'd have to walk it with tape measure and paper, take it home and make a dimensioned drawing that actually matches what you have and what you want. If all I had to go on are your drawings I wouldn't even offer a bid. I'm not trying to give you a hard time Angiolino but what you've drawn isn't going to work. Or worse, cause more problems than you have now. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 forgive me, I'm a mess, those three pillars on the opposite wall are from my building, the building was a single building and then it was gradually divided but I can anchor and hook up ok let's go back to the drawing 50 cm size of concrete pillars, linearly I have a distance of 9.50 meters in length is fine distance between the pillars on the short side 4, 72 metres, 7.83 on the long side is fine on the pillars I would like to attach with bolted plates, I was clear as someone perhaps you advised me let's start from the wall pillars with a height of 50 centimeters and half a meter to give the slope to the frame beams ok? problem the beams must be light but sturdy they are on the 2nd floor about 9 meters from the ground I only have to carry them so I have to organize myself. If you notice, I repaired the dormer window with a plastic cover like a shack last time I cut the pieces below and then assembled them above, climbing 5 meter wide panels of 1 meter at 10 meters above sea level was a struggle. they sell the beam bars in 6 linear metres, so I'll take them to 6 meter bars, I'll climb them onto the roof and weld them together to join them. I hope I've been clear on one side. I'll create something like an upright with a holding plate with holes to screw to the attic what do you think what do you think? I know I'm crazy. Either this or I'll have to weld the sheath onto a roll. the problem will be climbing 26 roofing panels. thank you sorry if I disturbed you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 There is nothing to forgive Angiolino. Latticino and I discuss things with each other sometimes without mercy. It's always better to find a mistake before we make it. Yes? Forget the 50 cm. concrete pillars and use the ones that are already there. Unless they are too weak to hold concrete anchor bolts. I'd cut the tubing to support the roof in lengths to reach from the wall to the far edge of the existing roof. Cut the angle on one end to match the wall with the far end laying on the roof. Then I'd weld square or rectangular bolt plates on the wall ends of the tubing. Each plate pre-drilled for 4 concrete anchor type bolts. Weld pre-drilled flat bolt plates to the other end so they will lay flat on the roof when the tubing is bolted to the wall. Weld these bold plates back from the ends so the tubing extends over the edge of the roof at least 15-20 cm. so water flowing off the new roof falls to the ground and doesn't run back onto the old roof. The way you drew it the tubing directly under the tin is running the WRONG DIRECTION! It needs to run down hill so any sag won't cause puddles and leak. You will need a couple cross pieces to keep the main beams from spreading and prevent the roof tube from sagging. It will all be much stronger and move less in high winds or heavy rain. One aspect I do not know how to do is flash corrugated tin to a vertical wall or the pilasters. If it were plywood with asphalt shingles or water proof membrane it would be easy, stick the flashing to the wall with mastic, lay it on the sheathing (plywood) mastic over it and roof over it. Flashing is thin sheet metal bent 90* lengthways. mastic prevents water from running between the flashing and the vertical wall and it lays on the roof under the shingles. This makes a water proof barrier that can flex a little with the movement of the building. Make sense? I'm not sure how to flash the roof at the wall and around the pilasters. Let me know what you think, I'll be back tomorrow evening, I'm getting tired and I have a long day tomorrow. Jer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 I think I understood your thought I should create a frame to rest on the attic with a certain slope, screw the panels to it, if I'm wrong please correct me thanks https://www.sidernegri.it/images/pdf/tubi/tubi_rettangolari.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 If flashing is the piece of zinc (olden buildings still have lead) between the roof and wall, you can always cut it in the seams of the brickwork and fill it up with mortar again. Common used technic where i live. Does not need to be metal. Dpc or epdm is also used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I do not understand why you keep drawing the roof support FLAT. If you change the above drawing so the horizontal member (Trave portante trattoia) extends past the edge of the existing roof and is welded directly to the bolt plate, at the edge so it slopes from the brick wall over the edge of the building. Install one every 20 cm or so and all you'll have to do is screw plywood sheathing to them and stick a single piece of waterproof membrane on top of it. Top the membrane with a layer of white 5mm. gravel (called ballast here) to protect the rubber membrane from the sun and wind. Don't forget to install flashing between the masonry wall and pilasters and roof sheathing before installing the membrane. Forget about the corrugated tin almost nobody used it anymore if they have a choice. Before you say you have no choice, think about this. You will have to make a waterproof roof under the tin anyway. If you use a rubber membrane and ballast you don't need the tin. You will have a modern roof and save the cost of the tin. This is NOT complicated at all and you'll have to lift everything onto the roof anyway so why carry up more than you need to? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angiolino Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 7 hours ago, Frosty said: Non capisco perché continui a disegnare il supporto del tetto PIATTO. Se si modifica il disegno sopra in modo che l'elemento orizzontale (Trave portante trattoia) si estenda oltre il bordo del tetto esistente e sia saldato direttamente alla piastra dei bulloni, sul bordo in modo che penda dal muro di mattoni oltre il bordo dell'edificio. Installatene uno ogni 20 cm circa e non dovrete fare altro che avvitarvi la guaina di compensato e incollarvi sopra un unico pezzo di membrana impermeabile. Coprire la membrana con uno strato di bianco 5 mm. ghiaia (qui chiamata zavorra) per proteggere la membrana di gomma dal sole e dal vento. Non dimenticare di installare la scossalina tra la parete in muratura, i pilastri e la guaina del tetto prima di installare la membrana. Dimenticatevi la latta ondulata, quasi nessuno la usa più se può scegliere. Prima di dire che non hai scelta, pensa a questo. Dovrai comunque realizzare un tetto impermeabile sotto la lamiera. Se usate membrana in gomma e zavorra non avete bisogno della latta. Avrai un tetto moderno e risparmierai il costo della latta. NON è affatto complicato e dovrai comunque sollevare tutto sul tetto, quindi perché trasportare più del necessario? Gelido il fortunato. grazie per la disponibilità potreste gentilmente realizzare a tempo perso uno schemino illustratore grazie scusatemi se vi ho disturbato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.