Best Daylight/Throat for BLACKSMITH Press

[stickermigtigger]

BLACKSMITH focused please. I don’t make knives. The largest average part made would be hammer heads (use five pounds as a norm).

I’m at the point of building the anvils in my press build. I need to determine the best ‘between the dies’ opening.

Any idea what the average/best distance between the dies would be for a blacksmith forge press, cylinder at rest (retracted)? 10 to 11 inches (CoalIron/PiehTools) is what I found researching, but I’ve seen several in photos and videos that appeared to be inches less.

Also, I can’t find the definitions of throat and daylight. I would have thought they were the same thing (distance between the anvil faces????). But I see them used in spec sheets and with different values.

Questions:

1. What are the definitions of ‘daylight’ and ‘throat?

2. What would be an ideal distance to have between the dies?

[Latticino]

I would define the throat as the distance between the press dies and the press main support structure.  If you imagine a C-frame style press this would be the distance between the main support channel and the dies.  With an H-frame press it is the distance between the two main uprights.  This sets the limit on the width/length of the piece that you can press (in the depth dimension).

I would define the daylight as being the maximum distance between the dies on the press.  This sets the limit on how deep an item you can press (needless to say you need to allow for any tooling).

For hammer making it really depends on your tooling.  I believe that Hofi (who could blank out an alarming number of hammer billets at an advanced age with one bad leg) used a tungsten punch, and stripper dies.  You could do worse than copying his configuration.  Once you know your tooling design, simple math will give you the desired travel distance.  Remember that daylight is only one factor, you also need the correct travel for your cylinder.

As far as I know, presses don't need "anvils" in the same way a power hammer does.  The end supports need to be robust and rigid, not necessarily massive.

[stickermigtigger]

Too far into C-frame build to go a diff route. I’m using the term ‘anvil’ to describe the upper and lower masses that will fill the non-‘daylight’ space between the base and the ram.

Your definition of ‘daylight’ is the distance I’m looking for.

Only looking for the best value of ‘daylight’ here.

[stickermigtigger]

Must not have been using the right keywords AND should have looked at images for my searches. Here's how Beckwood Corporation defines daylight and throat. Using the images as hints leads to many other documentation from other corps.

Turns out neither applies 'directly' to the distance I'm looking for but can be used probably to calculate it.

In this graphic it looks like what I'm looking for is 'Shut Height' with die thickness considerations.

 

 

[Frosty]

As mentioned, "throat" is the distance from center of the dies and the vertical support.

"Daylight" is a new one on me but it shouldn't be unreasonable to THINK it means the distance between the dies at full retraction. We would've called it the "die clearance."

We used to call the distance a ram moved it's "throw"  or stroke.

The "ANVIL" is the stationary part of a press, power hammer, pipe wrench, etc. It's the thing you do work against.

The mobile part can have many usually descriptive names but on a hydraulic press forge the mobile die is usually called the "Ram."

You just posted the Beckwood picture. The presses throat isn't indicated at all.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[stickermigtigger]

One of the forge press vendors I queried responded with this definition of daylight used in the spec sheets:

- "The daylight is the amount of space between die receivers when there are no dies installed and the cylinder is fully retracted." 

That looks close to the definition of 'shut height' in the graphic above.

Frosty: true. But they have a list on that page with definitions and they use this definition:

-Throat Clearance: On c-frame (gap-frame) presses, the throat clearance is the distance from the vertical centerline of the bed to the back of the press behind the bed. This measure is required to determine the diameter of parts and tools that can be positioned within the press.

So throat isn't relevant to my need.

[Frosty]

Uh huh. did you talk to one of their engineers or some guy at the counter? Marketing guys are always looking for ways to  make THIER product special and inventing terms is the norm.

One last point about the press you posted. It is NOT suitable for a forging press, it's probably designed to press and cure things like rubber or phenolic products. Did the advertisement mention a heated bed option? General Connectors the rubber plant I worked in before I came to Alaska had about two dozen presses with heated platens for curing various rubber parts. Mostly aviation seals and O rings but there were some more "developed" shapes.

I ran the "wire machine" and made hot and cold air ducting for aircraft. 

Not to turn this into a story but I've been around and using presses my whole life, Dad started me running the punch press in his shop when I was maybe 9 and I've been using hydraulic presses ever since. 

A problem you will run into by using whatever terms you find on the internet comes when buying one from another vender or buying parts to repair the one you do have. Rather than do that, mark the part you need and take a picture so the guy at the counter knows what you need.

Frosty The Lucky.

[stickermigtigger]

No sir. I wasn’t able to verify their curriculum vitae. But I do know it was one of their service techs. I’m sure he was clueless though.

[Frosty]

Nah, he wasn't clueless their company just uses their own terms. It's common and it takes a while to winkle out what's what. A corner you can paint yourself into is thinking Company X's terminology is somehow industry standard. Finding a picture like you did is very helpful it just isn't the final word.

Frosty The Lucky.

[bubba682]

I run a 8'' gap with a 10'' stroke piston if that helps it works good for me.