Ron Reil Burner versus a commercial Sievert burner.

[emtor]

I've made a small gas forge for heat treating, internal volume=900 cu cm (55 cu inches).
I've tried it with the burner that came with the propane tank, a Sievert 2941P,
length=75mm (2.95"), diameter=28mm 1.1"), orifice seems to be smaller than 1mm (3/64") possibly as small as 0.5mm (1/64").
It takes a little while to get up to heat treating temp, but once there I can crank down the pressure quite a bit.
My question is: -How does this Sievert burner compare to, let's say the Ron Reil burner?
The recommended operating pressure for the Sievert burner is 2 bar (29psi) and at this pressure is uses 600 grams/h (21 oz/h) of propane.
According to what I read on this forum the diy atmospheric burners built here operate at  much lower pressures than 2 bar.
Regarding the Ron Reil burner;-is there a minimum forge size that these burners will operate well in?

[Mikey98118]

A flame photo would allow us to better answer your question. For now, I can only point out that it at least has air slots, instead of air holes; that is a good sign. Also, I have owned Sievert torches in the past, and found them far better designed than most.

However, so long as you use a torch or burner with a brass head to heat your forge, you will need to leave it in an oversize opening, to keep it from melting! This means that you will lose about one-quarter of the heat potential of that forge, as a consequence

How much does your fuel cost?

12 hours ago, emtor said:

According to what I read on this forum the diy atmospheric burners built here operate at  much lower pressures than 2 bar.

It takes a certain amount of gas volume to induce sufficient air into a burner. Small gas orifices run at higher pressures than larger orifices to induce the same amount of air; but their overall gas volumes average out. There is no free lunch, either way

[emtor]

A flame photo won't be neccessary since after reading your(?) book, Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns,- I will not use the Sievert burner
for other than what it is intended for which is obviously not a forge.
I found the book after posting my question.
And no, I did not stick the burner into the opening.
I have a 20 pound propane tank. The cost of refilling it is about 20 USD.
The Sievert burner uses 600 grams per hour @2 bar, so in such a setup the propane tank should last 18 hours.
With a better burner and a small and well insulated forge it should become even more economical.

I only need a forge for heat treating knife blanks and perhaps for forge welding small billets.
I started making a forge last summer and I'll continue the work now. It's an old propane tank (20 pounds), and I've already lined it with 2 inches of kaowool blanket and I'll add another 2 inches to make a chamber of 20 cm. (8 inches) deep and a diameter of 10 cm. (4 inches) which should give me  1570 cm3 (96 cubic inches).
The fibre blanket will be treated with waterglass solution since I seem to have lost my bottle of rigidizer. Lastly a thin layer of refractory will be added. The refractory is good for 1400 deg. C (2550 deg. F).
So, the remaining question will be wether to use the 1/2 inch burner described in your book or the 3/4 inch burner.
Avoiding hot spots by using multiple burners are of no concern since I heat treat knife blanks inside a piece of steel tubing which gives an even heat.



 

[Mikey98118]

My book is nineteen years old; we hot rod maniacs have learned a few new tricks since those days.

To begin with, you want to always limit the number of air openings to three, whatever the burner size is; this gives the most spin to incoming air, and gives more space between those openings, to keep the burner ribs strong.

It has become plain that two 1/2" burners work out way better than a single 3/4" burner, in the size forge cylinder you are using. When both burners are lit, you will get more even heat than with a single central burner. When you don't need to use all that space, a movable interior (baffle) wall can be placed between the burners, and the far burner can be shut down, saving nearly half the fuel, which will do more for fuel economy athan the very thick layers of insulation that you are planning.

You want to use capillary tubing, or dispensing needles to make gas orifices for your burners that are between 0.026" 0.028" inside diameter by 1/2" long, and trap them in a MIG tip; then tune the burner by slowly sanding down the smaller tube size. I seem to remember that one of the Hoke torch tips will also work on 1/2" burners.

One thing that has become crystal clear over these added years, is that long thin forge interiors work poorly with naturally aspirated burners. Also, such a thick insulating wall, is likely to overheat the gas/air mixture running through the burner's mixing tube; NOT GOOD!

You are much better off to stay at 2" thick insulation, and increase the hard refractory flame layer to between 1/4" and 1/2". Finally, paint a finish coat of ITC-100 or Plistix 900, to help IR re-emission within the forge.

Use a movable brick wall in front of the forge opening to allow exhaust to escape, while radiating IR back into the forge interior.

 

 

[Mikey98118]

The interior dimensions you were planning on, are pretty close to those in a coffee-can forge (this employs a three-pound coffee-can; a #10 tin can?) Most guys use a single 3/8" burner in that size forge. Even then, you would usually turn it way down, once the forge interior heats up.

[emtor]

If I choose to go with my propane tank forge,-keep the 2 inch kaowool and keep the depth of 8 inches the diameter would become close to 7 inches instead of only 4.
The internal volume would now become close to 300 cubic inches.
Now the forge won't be long and thin anymore but more "square-ish", but I imagine that despite a larger volume to heat, the burner(s), as you mention will work better in this situation so hopefully the forge will not become a propane thirsty monster after all.
ITC-100 or Plistix is hard to find here in Sweden, but there's always Amazon.
By dispensing needles I assume you mean syringe needles.

[Mikey98118]

5 hours ago, emtor said:

Now the forge won't be long and thin anymore but more "square-ish", but I imagine that despite a larger volume to heat, the burner(s), as you mention will work better in this situation so hopefully the forge will not become a propane thirsty monster after all.

That is correct. One of the handy things to keep in mind is that a single 3/4" burner is considered able to sufficiently heat a 350 cu. inch forge interior. This figure has come down to us since the days before Frosty "T" burners, or Mikey burners were available. With today's burners, that figure is actually low

When it comes to burner sizes, we go by pipe sizes. One size down is equal to one-half the heat output, and vice versa going up. So, two 1/2" burners output the same heat as a single 3/4"; they just do it more evenly

[Mikey98118]

21 hours ago, emtor said:

ITC-100 or Plistix is hard to find here in Sweden, but there's always Amazon.
By dispensing needles I assume you mean syringe needles.

Dispensing needles are syringe needles; they simply don't have sharp ends. A little bit of #400 grit sandpaper will turn one kind of needle into the other.

You can do just fine making your own finish coat, using crushed zirconia (zirconium silicate powder) mixed with bentonite clay, or colloidal silica. You can find the first two things at any potter's supply store. No doubt you have those in Sweden, yes?

[emtor]

Dispensing needles for use in dispensers of some sort (?), not disposable needles (syringes) . . . I get it.

I had some trouble finding zirconia until I checked out potter's stores.
The blacksmith's community is quite small here contrary to potters so it pays to look in the direction of the clay-people for materials.
They sell zirconium silicate powder by the name Zircon 5 here in potter's supply stores.
This may be the glaze used for porcelain toilets and sinks I think and would act well as a reflective surface and would also tolerate high temps in a forge.
Colloidal silica is everywhere, even at the local paint shop.
Bentonite is also easy to obtain at potter's stores.

Regarding the parts the book says that call-out sizes isn't always the actual sizes.
-Is this also true for the internal diameter of the 1/2 inch burner body which is, according to what I found on google to be closer to 5/8 of an inch?

 

 

 

[Frosty]

A good ratio for home made kiln wash as researched by Marrten our Nederlander brother is approx 3% Bentone to approx 97% zirconia flour.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

7 hours ago, emtor said:

this also true for the internal diameter of the 1/2 inch burner body which is, according to what I found on google to be closer to 5/8 of an inch?

Yes, actual internal pipe diameters are larger than call-out sizes in metric pipe; just not as much larger.

 

As in America, way back when, so also in England and Europe. A couple centuries ago, pipe was made of much softer materials, and therefore, it needed heavier walls to keep from bursting under pressure. Steel is far stronger than brass, and steel has only improved in strength over time. So, thinner walls could safely carry the load. However, the outside diameters of pipe and pipe fittings were already set, so that one manufacturer's product would be able to screw into another's fittings. And so, modern pipe is always larger in fact, than in sales lists.

[BillyBones]

Not to high jack the topic but i have to say thanks for defining "dispensing" needle. 

[Mikey98118]

12 hours ago, emtor said:

Dispensing needles for use in dispensers of some sort (?), not disposable needles (syringes) . . .

They are used both in industry, and by hobbyists for dispensing glue, or ground solder in its own flux, with great precision on parts, circuit boards, jewelry, models, etc.

[emtor]

Tried some lathe work today by making a flared choke part from bits and pieces of scrap steel laying around in the shed.
I did it mostly to get the feel for the sequence of lathe operations not worrying too much about dimensions.
Using plumbing stuff straight from the shelf is a neat thing . . . in the USA,-not so much here  on the other side of the pond.
Almost everything used for plumbing over there does not exist here and buying from Amazon is a lousy deal thanks to the EU taxing everything that smells american. -So, I'm glad I own a metal lathe and an el cheapo milling machine.
 

[Frosty]

No pipe couplers? Wait, there are a couple ways to couple pipe, like a "union." Bummer. 

When I was obsessed with hitting a 1:12 ratio on the taper "exactly" I rotated the tool holder's final feed. At my worst OCD moment I cut the flare from bar stock, removed the threads from the mixing tube, machined an interference fit and sweated the flare on. 

At least I stopped before I set my lathe up to spin full length tapers like commercial burners. I'm not dead yet so maybe someday.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Actually, using plumbing parts is getting pretty problematic here, too. Steel pipe has been marginalized by plastic pipe. In response, more and more steel pipe is cheap Chinese imports, with loads of problems, but NOT for low prices...

I have moved on to the use of stainless steel but-weld pipe reducers, to get my money's worth, and stainless steel funnel shaped sheet  metal parts, for sufficient choices, when making linear burners.

The prices on stainless steel pipe and tubing have only encouraged me to lean into multiple smaller burners, despite the increase in workload involved.

I try to warm people to take time to try out plumbing parts, to insure that they aren't crooked before purchasing them for "T" burners.

But, we will eventually end up with plastic air entrances, thanks to the greed of part sellers

[Frosty]

Could take up dismantling old houses for the plumbing.

Frosty The Lucky.