Bearded Welder Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Hello all, forgive me if this isnt the right place to ask this by I myself had never intended on purchasing a press until i found a 40 ton hydraulic crimping press on facebook market place today for 350 bucks, now i know what its used for but no idea how it works, is it something that could be used as a forging press? Its a Thomas and betts press model # 21940 . I tried looking for info online but all that keeps coming up are diy presss, and i figured one of you fine folks might know alot more than me Any help is appreciated, or go tell me to jump off a cliff Thanks Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Now THAT might make a decent forging press as is. A little modification should pimp it out nicely. There would be different crimping dies for various hoses and fittings so it's already set up to change dies easily. You can swage with crimping dies if they don't have the flutes that make some crimped fittings look almost threaded. If it works I'd be interested enough to make a counter offer at least. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Thomas&Betts is still in business and has that press listed on their web site. Says operating pressure is 10,000 psi listed as the crimping head, so I don't think the hydraulics come with it. The hydraulic pump is listed separately. They also have a technical support & section. If the one you are looking at has the pump & controls, like Frosty said it would be worth a closer look & offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Wow ok thanks guys, good to know! He said in the ad that he doesn't have the pump for it but im sure it would be fairly cheap to acquire? Im assuming probably somewhere between 200 and 400? If it means having a working forge press for under 800 bucks sign me up! How complex are the controls? Ive never used one but im just assuming it has two actions with one lever, one is to squish and the other to not squish? One might make there own controls for a cheaper cost? Again im ASSuming so i might be making an ass out of my self! Cheers Phil So after posting that i did some quick research, the thomas and betts pump system is almost 4000 brand new, and i saw a used one for 700, i will keep looking around and see what there is..any reason i would want/have to stick with the same brand? I could potentially get a similar pump for cheaper? Again im new to the game of hydraulics, i mean ive used machinery on the farm all my life like loaders and such but nothing like this... Cheers x2 Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 No need to stick with the brand so long as the pump you get supplies enough fluid at a high enough pressure. I believe the one you're looking specs out at 10k psi. That's not an uncommon power pack output pressure. Expect to pay a few hundred anyway and $700 isn't out of the question up here it'd be reasonable. Control can be either auto return or the ram stops when you let go of the handle or step off the pedal, your choice. The units we used as casing jacks had the control valve on the power plant and connected to the jack with hoses. For a press I'd use a pedal control valve and mount the power plant under the press stand. That way everything stores on the same stand and can be rolled out of the way when not in use. Ours ran on 8hp "Wisconsin Robin" engines so I'd make up an exhaust system to get it straight out of my shop. 8hp is a lot of electricity, though the equivalent powers, elec is different. You'll have to look it up if someone here doesn't know how they equate off the top of their pointies. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Ok good to know, ive found a few used pumps online for 250 or 300 bucks, but they dont list any info about the pump itself, ill have to contact them later in the day. So im assuming auto return is more expensive and the pedal would work fine and possibly be cheaper, is it as simple as just putting the pedal onto the line from the pump to the press and then thats it? I like what you said about having everything in the same stand, thats just smart, I am definitely going to do that! Ok, by that you mean an 8hp fuel powered engine/motor might not need an 8hp eletric motor? Ill do some more research into differances and such. My wife gave me a go ahead to make an offer on the press, I figure I jump on it now and then wait for a deal on a pump, the landlord is building a new bigger shop in the spring so im in no rush to get it finished but it would be amazing to have. Thanks again Frosty Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 So.. Contacted the guy and made an offer, he accepted but asked what i was going to use it for and he said it wouldnt work for me..its only a 2 way cylinder and not a 4 way and it's really slow, it takes a good 15 to 30 seconds for it to go all the way down so its not quick enough to work the steel while its hot, i might get one or to presses in, unless that was one of the things you ment by pimping it out Frosty? Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 The speed of the stroke is determined by the volume of oil the pump can deliver at the required pressure, not by the slave cylinder. I am not sure of your 2Way / 4way cylinder description, over here that defines the type of control valve...In the UK the cylinders we call single or double acting? I have a 30 tonne double acting press (hydraulic return) which works well for punching hot metal having a stripper plate which the 15 tonne return power uses to pull the punch and drift back out. It has a two stage pump which gives you a fast approach speed with a 5 tonne push and then kicks over to a slower speed at 30 tonnes when it meets more than the 5 tonne resistance. I have a very slow 100 tonne single acting (spring return) horizontal press and a very fast and sensitive response 12 tonne single acting (spring return) press which cycles as fast as you can push the treadle. The latter being great for straightening hot bars and bowl sinking etc. Hope that helps, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I don't think the seller knows what he's talking about. 2 way, 4 way is the valve over here too. Single or double acting refers to the cylinder. Bearded guy. If the seller says it won't work, I'd subtract another $100 from my counter as it's a lot more risk than I thought. I don't think I'd take more off my counter, no good reason to punish the fellow for being honest. In his opinion anyway. It's also a good lesson when you sell something, if you don't think it'll work for what they want, keep quiet. Pimping it out refers to customizing it for smithing work and effectiveness. For example it not moving fast enough to make a full stroke while your steel is hot is exactly the reason I would NOT put an auto return valve body on a forge press. I want the hammer die (the one that moves) to STOP where I leave it. That way the die only has to move say 1/2" before it starts mashing the work. The price of components is on the bottom end of reasons to buy a particular one or type. What good is a tool that won't do the job, does it matter how inexpensive it was? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Hi Alan, Yeah I think both of you are right, he doesnt known the terms but he described it and its a single action, it can only apply force in one direction. And its the bottom die that moves up to do the squishing (hammer die) and then comes down by gravity. I don't know if it really matters where the hammer die is.. Frosty i can picture perfectly what you mean by manual action effectively making the stroke restart right away when you hit the pedal.. so its not going all the way up (or in this case down..) so manual is ideal in this situation. So he said he would part with it for 250 bucks. At the end of the day, what do you guys think? Im prepared to spend the money on if you guys think it will work, ive found a few 10000 psi power packs for 300 bucks.. Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Sounds like a deal to me. Might want to drag it along when you look at power packs. If they'll hook up give it a try. Don't get excited about buying a control valve until you've messed with a little. You'll be surprised how much forging you can do holding the stock in one hand and working a lever with the other. Levers are easier than hammers you know. If not you're doing it wrong! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 Going to pick it up later in the week! Thanks for all the help! And yeah ill probably just stick with the lever to be honest. Though I suddenly have an image in my head of a cave man pounding on steel with a lever Ill try an figure stuff out on my own with it but i may come back for some guidance! Cheers and thanks again for sharing your knowledge! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 We'll be waiting for better pics. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianc Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I've crimped a lot of hoses on those presses. They are usually an air over hydraulic Enerpac style pump, single acting cylinder with a spring return. I guess you could re-power it with a more suitable HPU but I don't think I would. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 No worries Brianc! All thoughts and comments welcome. Ive looked up the pump that goes with this unit and it is a full hydraulic power pack normally, so thats what ill be looking at. My only concern is the forging end of things..I didnt realise how small the opening is, its basically a 4 inch by 4 inch square, then take into account 3/4 inch dies, the opening would be 2½" tall but i guess for knife making that should be big enough? Thoughts anyone? Ive also been trying to find the cylinder size online so that i can figure out how much GPM i need to run it at a decent speed but so far no luck.. Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 So I picked it up, guy knocked off more money because ill have to customize it, he didnt have to but really nice of him. Banana is for scale. I took pictures in the kitchen before my wife came in so it would be bright instead of the dreary shop. I knew it would be small, in terms of the opening but I didnt think the cylinder would be as short as it is, he said its roughly an inch long, maybe a little more, ( he also thought the cylinder was 3 inches in diameter) so I think that means I will need multiple dies (that do the same thing) of varying thicknesses to accommodate the work, if i have something that is 3 inches thick, my dies cant be bigger than a half inch each, but if I have work thats only a half inch thick I will need larger dies to reach the work before maxing out the cylinders reach.....does anyone forsee i problem with my line of thinking on that regard? I am going to design a type of spring return mechanism that also holds the dies. Another problem I forsee is in the 3rd picture, the top die slids in, I wouldnt be able to have a drawing or flat die on it because id never be able to pull it out of its housing to switch, unless thats what the 2 screw holes are for? I havnt really looked at it closely, I just got home and snapped some pictures, hopefully this weekend I will be able to examine it some more. Any thoughts, questions, concerns, witty tunes or bad jokes lay them on me! Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 1" of travel and a banana die. I'm thinking a Jimmy Buffet tune? Hmmm, no room for a coconut so forget a lime press. I'd be happy to think up dies for that little beauty. Spacers are for when you need to press farther than the travel. I'd look into the air over hydraulic pump, they're usually pretty fast till they run into resistance and begin to PUSH. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Welder Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 Well I would like to take a moment to thank everyone for there advice and especially you Frosty, with your help with this press as well as burner and forge advice...but unfortunately my wife just quit her job (came with living on a farm with a shop) so we are moving back to the city and I will have to put my blacksmithing on hold and in storage for now until i have a space to work in. Again thank you very much! Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Ah. . . Such is life. I sincerely hope it was a move for the better rather than an escape from a bad job. All the best Phil, keep in touch. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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