Another First Forge Thread

[benjhind]

Hi Folks,

I'm looking for some information and advice on a setup I've been working on.  I'm new to forging, and don't know anyone in my area (Tillsonburg Ontario, Canada) to come and have a look. 

I have had a little difficulty locating materials in my area, so the forge is a big compromise of what I could find and what I had on hand.  My initial plan was to do a kaowool forge in a 20lb propane can, but the kaowool and (whatever you call that hardener stuff) were tough to find.  I also had a quantity of firebrick on hand.

I went with hard firebrick (9x4.5x1.25") and welded (poorly) up a simple frame that would stabilize it and hold the burner.  I made sure to construct it in a way where I could replace bricks as they crack, or remove the back wall to pass stock through.  The floor is a double-layer whereas the walls and ceiling are a single layer thick.  The internal dimensions are 9"x6.5"x4.5" (LxWxH).

I tried to make a Frosty T burner but was unable to locate the proper T.  My T is 3/4" x 3/4" x 1", rather than the specified 3/4" x 1" x 1".  I used a .035 mig tip, and tapped it into the end of a 1/8 SCH 80 nipple.  For those interested, the Lincoln tips I found here in Canada were a M6x1.0 thread.  I cut the mig tip so that it is roughly halfway across the T, but is likely still a bit long.  I could not find a "thread protector" and installed a 3/4" coupler to act as the flare.  The flare currently comes through the firebrick 1/4" and therefore sits 4.25" above the floor.

I've only fired it once so far, and on reading I don't think I was supplying enough propane.  I was running it around 4PSI and found that it was huffing/puffing/sputtering.  This was exaggerated when cold, with the frequency getting faster and more even as it got hot (but did not go away).  It didn't seem to want to stay lit at a higher pressure (when cold) but maybe it just needs to warm up, then be cranked higher.

The picture here is after 8 or 9 minutes.  Likely not up to full temperature but it heated up that rebar fairly quickly.  I'll get a better picture tonight when it is dark. 

I think I need to shorten my mig tip more, and try higher pressure.  I bought a pack of 10 tips so if it gets too short it is an easy task to start over.  I'd love to hear any feedback from those with more experience!!  My questions are:

What to do about the huffing?

Should I try it without the coupler/flare?

How far should this stick past the firebrick or should it be recessed into the firebrick?

Should my forge have a back wall?

 

Thanks!

[Mikey98118]

A reducer fitting can be beveled inside, and threaded into the "T"; this isn't quite as good as the right fitting, but it is adequate to bring your burner up to snuff.

Your forge is on the too large size as is, so this affords the opportunity to add insulating layers inside, as you come across suitable materials; these can consist of Morgan K26 brick, hard ceramic fiber board, High alumina kiln shelf, and re-emitting coatings. Giving you a generous amount of materials to choose from, locally.

Why was ceramic blanket left off this list? Because its main plus is its ability to conform to curved surfaces; it has minuses to go along with that. Therefore, it should be ignored in box forge design

[benjhind]

Thanks Mikey,

Are you suggesting a 1x1x1" T and using a reducer to go down to the 3/4" nipple? I'll check the local stores next time I get to town.

I can certainly decrease the size easily by adding more firebricks. I still have some to spare. I'll look up the other materials, I'm not familiar with them.

Ceramic blanket was the original plan, but the closest place I could find it was 3 hours away. The kiln supply that sold it also sold rigidizer, but it was hard to justify 6 hours in the car when I had firebricks in the shed.

I shortened the mig tip again and the flame seemed the same. It seems as though it is being blown off the burner. I tried 2-10PSI. I'll keep looking for more parts, but at least it burns!

[Mikey98118]

Yes; don't forget the inside bevel to help it work properly. As a tenporary improvement, adding more hard, barely insulating bricks beat the heck out of doing nothing

[benjhind]

Hahaha I'm going to guess that the hard bricks are not an ideal choice :D

We will call this a temporary forge. I really did intend to do the propane tank style. I'm a bit nervous about the ceramic fibers, which was another vote in favour of the bricks.

I googled the materials you mentioned and haven't found local suppliers but I'll keep looking! If anyone knows of somewhere local that might help me out let me know.

I had a lot of fun with the kids beating on bits from the scrap bin tonight, and made a little crucible and cast some aluminum. Fun with fire!!

[Mikey98118]

6 hours ago, benjhind said:

I'm going to guess that the hard bricks are not an ideal choice

True, but don't let the best get in the way of "better than before." You're doing okay, and have your head on straight, so just keep on truckin'

[benjhind]

Thanks Mikey, but I think you've got me all wrong.  I certainly don't have my head on straight!

I was just poking around and found this thread.  micheal83h has a video here showing his burner doing the same "huffing" thing I'm trying to describe.  It gets much smoother when hot, but that is how my burner runs when it is cold.  I'll make a few tweaks tonight and double check for any obstructions in the gas flow.

 

My burner setup is similar, with just a regulator, hose and then straight to the burner.  I've read some folks use a ball valve inline, and I read something about a needle valve as well?  Not sure whether these are needed.

 

I will look for more parts when I get to town, which isn't often for a hermit like me!

[Mikey98118]

The ball valve is for quick shutoff during a fire. The needle valve is for fine tuning your flame, without waiting for the gas pressure between the regulator and your burner's gas orifice to stabilize every time you change the flame. However, both valves can easily be added later on, if funds are running low. 

[Frosty]

Yours is probably huffing for the same reason as the 17 yro Michael's forge is. Your opening is WAY too large and exhaust gases are being inhaled by your burner.

Hey Mike, I make box forges with Kaowool, been doing it for years. The only time I've had any sag was when I got in a hurry, my bad.

Hard firebrick is a tremendous heat sink and is slightly better insulation than limestone. It will work, I've done it when I needed to but ideal isn't within eyesight of the ball park. Don't scrap what you have, if nothing else it'll be a fine way to learn about your burner and get it tuned up.

Bear in mind though, hard firebrick can take half an hour or more to come to forging temperature let alone welding temperature, maybe an hour to high yellow. Add to that the amount of fuel burned to get it and keep it hot. So, time and money really make a 6 hr. round trip an economical alternative.

Don't buy rigidizer at the ceramic supply, it's the expensive stuff with a short shelf life. Fumed silica is commonly available at fiberglass or plastics suppliers. It's used to thicken polyester resins where runny resin isn't a good thing. A pint can of fumed silica cost me some 50 miles N. of Anchorage AK. $8 and weighed something like 3 Oz. I've rigidized approx. 3 sq' and used maybe 3 tbsp. Be sure to get the hydroPHILLIC silica, so it mixes easily with water. There is a version that doesn't like water, hydroPHOBIC silica. The guy at the plastic or fiberglass supply will know what you're talking about if you ask for fumed silica that likes water.

Use what you have, we'll help you improve is.

I think you have your head on straight or you wouldn't know you don't know what you're getting into but went ahead and took a lash at it anyway. To top it off here you are asking how to make it better. You'll be holding classes and helping folk build their forges in no time. We've seen that happen gratifyingly often here.

Frosty The Lucky.

[benjhind]

Frosty!

Thanks for the input. However, I need you to dumb it down just a smidge. What's an opening? The one thats too big, I mean. The orifice/mig tip? The coupler/flare? The front of the forge?

I shortened a .035 mig tip progressively down to a nub today and it got better, but still runs like crap cold and will not stay lit outside the forge.

After some thought, I'd like to get my hands on soft fire brick but it seems the only place I can find it is a pottery place in Toronto. Same with ceramic wool. Toronto is not a fun place for us rural folk, but I can definitely check it out when I get there. My wife convinces me to go every third year or so. People out here must not make much pottery. I wouldn't think they make much north of Anchorage either, but what do I know. 

I can definitely go from a cold forge to demagnetized steel (thin 10mm rebar) in around 10 minutes, so the setup isn't all bad. Once it is up to temp it is much faster than that. If anyone reading this is in Southern Ontario and wants to stop by the shop and check it out, the coffee or beer is on me! (No I don't condone drunken forging)

I picked up some train track this week and a buddy has a torch to help me rough shape it for a horn, which I'll finish up with the grinder and sander.  Another buddy has some 1.5" plate. The two together should be useful once I actually start forging. I wasn't really going to do much forging with it, but it is fun and very challenging so I think I should keep at it.

I tried to anneal some saw blade knife blanks tonight as well. I'll dig them out of the kids sandbox and see how they look tomorrow. 

Let me know which opening we are talking about and I'd be happy to try to close it! 

Thanks again to both of you for the feedback!

[Buzzkill]

11 hours ago, benjhind said:

I picked up some train track this week and a buddy has a torch to help me rough shape it for a horn, which I'll finish up with the grinder and sander.

May I suggest you read through the following thread before taking the torch to your section of track:

 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

16 hours ago, benjhind said:

The one thats too big, I mean    Let me know which opening

The opening Frosty mentioned is the front of the forge (I think). If you put some fire bricks as doors at both ends to close it up enough to just put the stock in, you should see an improvement. Sorta like this.

[Frosty]

Yes, the opening in the end of your forge needs to be closed down. You'll have to leave enough space for exhaust gasses to escape but not a whole lot.

By all means check out Charles's rail anvil thread before you start cutting up the piece you have. He has one of the best rail anvil's I've ever seen. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[benjhind]

9 hours ago, Buzzkill said:

May I suggest you read through the following thread before taking the torch to your section of track:

 

 

Wow. Yes you may!!

Ok, I'm now fairly blown away and I'm concerned that I will ruin the potential of this beautiful chunk of iron.  Aaand I'm also reassured as my buddy had a couple more chunks. So if I haven't picked the right path I can likely con him into another.

I really do thank you though because this thread has convinced me to change the plan out for a vertical orientation. This chunk has saw cut ends and I really think it will be good on its end.

4 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

The opening Frosty mentioned is the front of the forge (I think). If you put some fire bricks as doors at both ends to close it up enough to just put the stock in, you should see an improvement. Sorta like this.

 

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

Yes, the opening in the end of your forge needs to be closed down. You'll have to leave enough space for exhaust gasses to escape but not a whole lot.

By all means check out Charles's rail anvil thread before you start cutting up the piece you have. He has one of the best rail anvil's I've ever seen. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Thats awesome and I appreciate the feedback from you gentlemen. I did run the forge with a couple bricks in front of it last night but did not get a chance to start it cold in that fashion. 

Tonight I was helping the neighbours get some crops off but hopefully I will get some time to run the forge this weekend and post results. 

 

Thanks again for all the help!!

[ThomasPowers]

Seems like most of Blacksmithing is an iterative process; so as long as things are getting better; you are doing it right!

[Mikey98118]

Just so

[Frosty]

You're more than welcome, it's our pleasure to help folk get good and thoroughly addicted to the craft. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[benjhind]

Okay, so the weekend didn't provide me a ton of time, but I was able to do some tinkering.

I got to town and found the 1x1x3/4 T to finish the burner properly. I didn't crank the tap too deeply, and it worked out that a new mig tip centered up nicely without having to be trimmed. I'd say that it works equally to the previous setup with the mig tip ground to a nub. Even with the forge closed up to a 1x4.5" gap, it huffs significantly on lighting, but evens out as the forge comes up to temperature. 

I experimented a bit with more flow and tried up to 15psi. The noise from the flame seems to plateau well before that so I think the BTUs from the burner do as well.

I haven't fired it yet with a narrower chamber, but the way it was set up I don't think I'm reaching forge welding temps. I'm getting some orange, but I think the hard firebrick is holding me back with the current setup, as pointed out by you knowledgeable smiths!

If I keep at the craft, I will rebuild. I've got one and a half T-bar fence posts and 4 bolts into my current forge. The bolts were from my junk bin, and the hard firebricks were from my maple syrup evaporator. I paid a buck apiece for the T-bar fence posts, so I guess I'm out a buck fifty if I ditch this design. I will learn to cope.

Non-forge section: I figured these weren't worth their own thread in the appropriate subforums.

I rounded off some cheap hammers. One is a regular hammer (cheapo found on the highway at some point), and I tried to turn it into the ball side of a ball peen. Another was a 3lb that I bought for cheap at some point. I call it "the convincer" and have used it for teaching car parts how to cooperate.  I conservatively rounded one side, but not too round. Maybe there's room for removal of more material, but I'll see how I like it (pic below). I plan to profile the other side into a cross peen through material removal, so that will lighten it significantly, but I'm not sure I care. I thought they would be better suited to the craft.

I dropped a big ash tree (I heat with wood), and brought a round to the shop to serve as a base for my rail anvil. I tried to level it with the flap disc by sliding it around the shop floor and grinding down the dirty spots. After a while I realized that it would sit flat, but if I rotated it 90 degrees, it would rock. Apparently my concrete isn't as flat as I thought. 

I like the rail on its end. The hammer feels better and has more bounce than striking the top of it. I plan to carve a horn in one flange and possibly a cut-off tool (not sure of the name) into the web or the other flange. Baby steps.

I'd like feedback on securing it to the round. I think it would cut down the ringing, and be more stable against my less-than-consistent hammer blows. My thought was to punch a hole through the middle web with a torch about 12"up from the bottom, and secure it by screwing an eye lag into either side of the round and passing a chain through the hole and adding tension with a turnbuckle. I'd like feedback on this before blasting a hole through the web.

I also have a chunk of mild steel about 1.5x10x10". It has a laser cut in it. I think a large work surface would be great at times, but im not sure what to do with it. Give it a separate round of wood? Somehow fix it to the top of the rail? I'm not sure at this point. Maybe try to get a hardie in it? Open to ideas. I know that you folks say that you only need an area as big as your hammer, but the tip of the rail is only slightly bigger than the hammer!

[Frosty]

A rail anvil mount I'm fond of is a stout beam, say a 4" x 4" against the rail flange with a simple slot over each side of the flange to prevent it from tipping or rattling. Lots of guys use bolts or screws to tighten the clamp thingies. That way it's held well but you can lift the rail out and turn it over. This doubles the number of bottom tools you can cut or grind on your anvil. 

The web, that section between the rail and flange is thicker than the flanges and makes a nice fuller. Various hardies and butchers can be ground in one flange, leaving the other to grind for: pipe, ball or acorn swages. Twisting forks can be cut or ground in a flange almost anywhere down a side and that allows you to pull up on the bending wrench to get your legs into it. 

There are plenty of pics of ways to mount a vertical rail anvil in the rail anvil thread.

Frosty The Lucky.

[benjhind]

Thanks Frosty,

For now I think that I will try a horn on one flange and a fuller on the web, as you've recommended.  I was thinking that there was enough real estate on the web to also integrate a hot cut as well, but I see some are hesitant to integrate a hot cut into the face of the anvil for safety reasons, so perhaps I should abstain until I've got some experience.  I'm sure a hatchet in a vice would suffice for my purposes right now.  I think I'll proceed with my idea to chain the track down for now.  If I get a lot of tools ground into it and need to use the other end, I can reanalyze my options.  I'm sure an inch hole in the web won't affect the functionality of the rail appreciably.

I need to spend less time typing and thinking and more time hammering!

[Frosty]

A hot cut on a rail anvil isn't like leaving a hardy in the hole. A hardy sticks up 4"-6" above the face of the anvil so if you're silly enough to strike with your hand over the heel you stand a good chance of punching the hardy with your fist. This is a BADNESS thing. 

A hot cut or butcher ground into the flange of a vertical rail anvil on the other hand is flush or slightly below the "face" of the anvil. I've NEVER punched the face of a anvil, EVER, not even close. To take into account a good conservative approach to safety issues of which I'm in favor, grind the hardy and butcher in the flange on the far side of the rail. That way you'd have to bend over and strike from a really weird position swinging the hammer at the family jewels to punch the hardy with your hand. Also for different stock and such you may have to walk around to the far side and so are unlikely to forget what you're doing. Hmmmm?

I don't know about other folk, especially new guys but I find it highly unlikely I'd try so hard to injure myself. When I really feel a need for sympathy I whine and Deb shuts me down mercilessly. I don't need to bleed or mash my privates. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I love the commercial where the mom is feeding the cat and the kid yells out, "I fell" and mom says "there are bandages in the bathroom". Then the kid says "I'm bleeding" and she says "get two". That's my wife when I come in from the shop now & then. She used to get upset but now it's no big deal.

[ThomasPowers]

Since I have insulin crashes from time to time; my wife worries about me; she wont walk out to the shop to check on me, it's a stone's throw from the house and there is a graveled path leading from the back door to the shop door, but she will yell and get upset if I don't answer back.  Why I will have to get the old farm bell installed when I get power to the powerhammers!

[Frosty]

That commercial reminds me of my Mother. One of her favorite warnings was, "If we have to take you the hospital you're going to get a spanking when we get you home." Then there was, "Don't bleed in the house!"

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[ThomasPowers]

My Mother grew up on a farm in Rural OK; no electricity save for a wind charger for the battery the radio ran off of.  They tended to not go to the Hospital and she had a wealth of "gory stories" she told us kids.  She didn't have a birth certificate; born on the kitchen table and the Dr never filed one...not that far back either as she still alive as is her step father...(Tractor rolled over on her Father when she was 11).