ipsullivan Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 I am working on this project when I find time. I do appreciate the feedback and advice. I just attempted firing it up this weekend after finally painting it the week prior. I used the following: -1”x3/4” tee -6” nipple (3/4”) I followed your PDF when building. Would you recommend trying a MIG tip with a larger orifice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Okay, I get not having time on any reasonable schedule. No, I don't recommend changing things until we know what's wrong. It not only shouldn't BE doing that it shouldn't be ABLE to do that. How about a still pic of the flame blowing off the forge nozzle and another straight through the intake ports of that burner. Pics of your fingers interfering with performance isn't helpful. We can't tell what's wrong if you show us what it's like when it is not exhibiting the problem. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 Attached is a photo of keeping the flame lit with a torch (because it can’t maintain a flame on its own). The intake ports are unobstructed when taking this photo. Pressure was about 7 psi. I also attached a photo of the intake ports. That MIG tip has been trimmed about .350”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 Sometimes, a hot performing burner can be quite finicky during tuning, Despite trouble keeping it lit, I 'm looking at a very hot flame. Don't get discourage, when you are s-o-o-o-o-o close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Well, I'm at a loss for the problem, all I can say at this point is stop trimming the jet! The pic through the intake ports shows the end of the mig tip way deeper than I start tuning mine and this burner is anything but too rich. Maybe it's actually a mislabeled 0.030 mig tip? A 0.035 mig tip that deep in the throat should be making yellow feathers, not clean translucent blue flame. It's just not well formed, it looks fast but he's running low psi. Any ideas Mike? Maybe a flame holder? Read the Tea leaves? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 I will check the MIG tips with gage pins tomorrow at work. I’m curious if the Amazon.com regulator could be junk and not accurate. Maybe I should verify the pressure with another gage. In the mean time I am going to work on the insulation. If I’m feeling productive, I might get the refractory done by the weekend. Still need to buy some kiln wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I strongly suggest you make the openings in the shell for the burners large enough you can slip them in and out. As is, you have to unscrew the thread protector / couplers to get them out. Believe me you won't have to have that forge hot more than a session or two and you aren't going to unscrew them. Sure, get an accurate gage to check but the psi just is NOT important, a T burner operates on a pretty flat curve. Meaning the flame characteristics change very little from low to high psi. it will only lean out slightly at the high end. The ONLY thing I use the gauge for is to repeat a temperature in the forge. Some work benefits from orange heat and less scale formation while welding wants to be high yellow. I can look at the notes, adjust the gauge pressure, light it, go have a cup of coffee and not have to tinker later to get the right temperature. Focusing on psi is a waste of your time, especially before you get your burner working. The problem is NOT psi. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 Frosty, As you previously suggested, I plan to remove the thread protectors all together and utilize the burner port as the final flare. I am a seeing now that it will be best to tune these burners with the insulation complete. Also, good to know I don’t need to focus on the pressure too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 18 minutes ago, ipsullivan said: As you previously suggested, I plan to remove the thread protectors all together and utilize the burner port as the final flare. Not while you are having a problem keeping the burner lit already. Frosty, I would also suspect that he needs a larger MIG tip; it is even more likely with one of your burners--with this problem--than with mine, because your design normally gives out softer flame than mine, so I presume that this problem is quite unusual with yours, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Forget about psi. PERIOD. And NO don't keep changing several things at a time or nobody will know what changed what. ONE change, test observe make notes. Then alter the last change a LITTLE, test, etc. or make ONE more change, test, observe, take notes. If you are going to change anything about the flare, OPEN THE HOLE IN THE SHELL SO IT CLEARS. I have never suggested you run your burners without the thread protectors. It might Mike. This is the first time I've ever seen a T burner drawing too much combustion air. Especially with the jet so deep in the throat. Right now I'd like to see if what he bought as a 0.035 mig tip really is. It's acting like a 0.030. The jet is very close to the throat, it's ratio close to right but moving way fast and the flame is unformed. It's almost spraying like a weed burner. I'd like to get my hands on it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Ah, yes. The instructor's delemma. Students rarely suspect that things can be just as frustrating on this end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 Frosty, Your direction to open up the port in the shell has been noted! No need to yell. I am not a magician, and things take more than 24hrs to get done. I will report back later in the week. Thanks for the help so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 My suggestion was to cover the gauge with a piece of duct tape as it's using too much of your attention. I have always tuned by ear and by eye so PSI is just adding confustication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 Believe it or not, the mig tips accept gage pins up to .041”. They are marked .035”. These were an Amazon buy. I did find some small burrs a still in the orifice when checking with the gage pins. Looks like I need more attention to detail when trimming and deburring the jets. I will re-test with these jets today without changing anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipsullivan Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 No change with the properly deburred jets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 That's about what they generally are. As Mike says the flame looks to be about the right ratio and that looks good to me too. Messing with the fuel air ratio can only make it worse. The flame's shape and blowing off is the problem and I'm at a loss. Maybe try a 3/4" x 1 1/4" or (1 1/2") bell reducer for the flare and see if it'll act as a flame holder and keep it from blowing out. Don't you have two burners on the forge? Is it doing the same thing? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 I would prefer to see your problem with the burner solved; this is the best solution. Meanwhile, we are stuck with "any port in a storm." Normally, excessive back pressure is to be avoided like a plague. However, a second burner, will bring up back pressure in the forge; it is possible that two opposite problems may cancel each other well enough, to provide a temporary solution, which you can stomach; providing time to search for the real solution. Later, properly running burners, will lower the back pressure, cancelling out that problem. Gimp answers aren't tasty, but I'd rather be successful than right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 I'm asking about a second burner for a couple reasons: I seem to have a glimmer of a memory so eliminating that would save some wondering. However if there is a second one with a similar problem that narrows things down considerably. While messing with back pressure is on the WHAT IF shelf I'm not looking there till we've eliminated better possibilities. I want too know what's going on so I can do it on purpose. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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