My first post, How ya all doing?

[facium]

I have been reading your posts for about a week now, and have finally gotten up the courage to make a post.
I have been pounding copper and aluminum sheet for about a year now (off and on). It started with a scrap piece of aluminum I started hitting with a hammer.
I have attached my first two pieces(one in copper and one in aluminum), . both are about 8.5 in. tall (not much size referance in the pics).

I have a great many questions as a lot of the proccesses for working copper discribed in your forum, I have never heard of. It sounds like there are some established methods I just don't know about. (I just hit it with a hammer till it looks the way I want).

First, what would you use pitch for?

Second, is it usual to heat the copper to soften it, because I have never done that. If I don't heat it will it lead to problems I am unaware of?

I have more questions but this will suffice for now.

Thanks,
Michael (Facium)

Edited July 21, 2008 by facium

[triw]

Welcome and you work looks nice.

[Thomas Dean]

Howdy from East TEXAS!! and welcome to IFI! That's some VERY nice work! I don't do much copper (only roses and the like, check my gallery to see them, if you like) so I can't help you too much. I'll bet if you go to the top of the page and click on "User CP" in the green bar and update your profile stating where you are from that you may have someone close to you that can help. Shoot, maybe you could met and exchange ideas. Once again welcome. Man, that nice work....

[Glenn]

what would you use pitch for?

Pitch is a backing material to support the copper while you impress your design.

is it usual to heat the copper to soften it

Copper work hardens. Heat it, then put it into water to anneal the copper making it soft again.

I am sure there are coppersmiths out there that can explain it better and in greater detail.

[facium]

pitch is a backing material, lol never would have guessed.
sounds messy. I have been using a sandbag I made from a pair of blue jeans (just the leg)

[welder19]

Welcome, looks like you do pretty good as it is.

welder19

[facium]

Glen I have noticed the copper gets harder to work after hitting it a bit. I have just benn hitting it harder (or using a bigger hammer). this does slow down the work, I would like to give it a try.
anybody got any suggestions on what indicators I should use (color change ect.) and what i should quench it in (other than water)

[John B]

To anneal your copper, heat it allover to bright red and quench in a tank of clean water, it can be left to air cool, but obviously this takes time.

You can work copper over pitch, lead, sandbags, stakes or carpet material, each have their own characteristics, and some smiths favour one technique over others, all have their place and uses.

[facium]

thanks John, I'll try it. I'm working on a bigger sun, and am having trouble hitting it hard enough to move the copper, and still be accurate enough to make the shape I want.

[John B]

Try pushing (sinking) the dome deeper over a large ring rather than a resisting surface, it will work quicker, then push the face back to the profile and detail required after filling the void with whatever medium you favour.

Try sand and hold in place with a backing plate and duct tape if you dont like the idea of filling it with lead or repousse compound (pitch mixed with tallow +resin+plaster of paris or similar, or a Chattertons Compound)

You may be able to purchase a suitable repousse mix from a silversmith or jewellers suppliers, but it can be a messy operation.

Good luck with the project.

[Glenn]

Look at the shape of your hammer face. A flatter with a 2-1/2 inch square face has 6-1/4 square inches of surface ares. A 2 pound blacksmithing hammer I measured has a 1-1/2 inch sq face or 2-1/4 square inches of surface. Other hammers have what looks to be ball bearings, or a piece of round bar say 3/4 of an inch long welded to the hammer as a face. Both would have much less than one square inch of surface area.

The point is, all else being equal, choose the hammer face for the job at hand. You want x amount of energy spread over 6 sq inches, or concentrated in an area of just 1/2 inch square? As in blacksmithing, use a hammer weight that you can control. Follow John B's suggestion and look into different backing materials. Lots of combinations to try.

[facium]

thanks John, I may try pushing the dome out first on my next piece, but it's too late to try on my current one (I'll post pics of the work in progress when I get home tonight).


on another note, this has been a wonderful experiance. I really aprieciate the help.

[facium]

thanks to you too Glen, I mostly use a pick I ground the tip on (I think it came from an autobody set). the surface couldn't be more than 1/4" round (but I ground it oval so I'm not sure). I think at this point I'll try heating the copper, before I change hammers. can't change too many thinks at once, or I won't be able to judge what made the differance.

[Thomas Dean]

The absolute best way to anneal copper is to heat completly red (cherry) and quench in alcholol. I have used it for annealing copper gaskets at the chemical plant where I work but you have to be extrememly careful. Clean water is the next best, as JohnB mentioned above.
I use 16oz copper for the roses I make and the stuff comes with a coating to protect it from tarnishing. This is the copper used for gutters and flashing on roofs. When I buff the material it will become as hard and stiff as steel. Annealing softens it back to a working stage. If I don't anneal, when I start to shape the flower the petals can split due to the work hardening. (ya don't have to ask how I know this....I just do... ) I did make a dish/bowl form a piece of 1"dia. x 2 1/2"lg piece of copper a while back and annealing it sure makes life easier.

[facium]

I can not thank you guys enough. Heating and quenching the copper did the trick. I was able to streach the copper way farther with a lot less effort. In fact now I have to be carefull not to go too far.

I'm posting some pics of the piece I'm working on. sorry I didn't take any pics of where I was before annealing, I was just so excited to try it, I forgot to take any.
anyway I have to get back to hammerin

[Glenn]

The absolute best way to anneal copper is to heat completly red (cherry) and quench in alcholol.

This seems to need a notation as to safety, and the possibility of the alcohol catching fire. The alcohol may burn with little or no visible flame (chemistry class was a long time ago) and you may not know you have a fire till things get ugly.

Thomas, please advise of your experience in that matter. Firefighters please advise also.

[facium]

I believe in the KISS philosophy (Keep It Simple Stupid). clean water is working just fine. wouldn't have any place to keep a bucket of alcohol. I don't even have a shop (I sit in a chair on the front porch and hold the sand bag on my lap). man was my wife confused when I heated this piece on the stove bunner and quenched it in the kitcken sink, but we have been married 20 yrs and she knows not to ask. :)

[John B]

This was an experimental piece for a house sign for a "Wren Cottage", it is approximately 8 " diameter, and the image for the pattern was from an old English Farthing coin about 5/8" diameter second pic. Material was 18swg copper.

It was a first attempt at a different technique, and part made at this stage, unfortunately I don't have a picture of the finished item

This was made on a flat plywood board, the outline and detail defined with a small lining chisel with rounded edge to prevent it cutting through the annealed material, but deep enough to leave an impression on the base side, (The easiest way of doing this is to stick a copy of the drawing/picture onto the face of the copper, and follow the lines of it with the lining chisel)

The next stage was to form a depression, the vague shape of the finished object in the material from the underside to give a relief for the body shape.

Using the board with various thicknesses of materials, in this case, squares of softish leather cut from a welders apron, and firm piled carpet tiles, stacked to provide the "give" necessary to allow the tools being used to form the detail required the finished piece can be formed. Patience is a necessity and little and often are key points to remember, just keep adjusting the supporting materials to suit, and work the material from both sides if necessary, a bit of thought may be required how to best achieve this.

If you scan in the picture required, you can flip the image to make a right and left versions, make the pieces, cut them out and solder/braze together to form a three dimensional object. The weathervane cockerell head is an excellent example of what can be achieved using this or similar methods, for suggestions on tool shapes run a net search

Great therapy ideal for making jewellery, wall hangings, scenes etc

[facium]

That looks great, you used a punch/drift/chisel/whatever to strike the pattern from the front first (chaseing?). then pushed the design features out from the back (repousse?).

just trying to learn the terms of the trade.

thats pretty much how I have been going about it, but I don't use a punch very often (can't hold it, the hammer and the piece at the same time). eye detail, and line depth correction are about the only place I use a puch.

Edited July 22, 2008 by facium

[John B]

Basically work it from both sides as required, if you work on any backing, the trick is to hold the workpiece in place against the backing with the pressure of the tool you are holding/using, try working on a bench rather than your lap/knees. You can sit or stand so long as it is at a comfortable height.

Try to remove as many variables as possible

A common mistake when hitting the tool or marking out is to "Double strike" the blows. What I mean by this is that the tendancy is to place the hammer face lightly on to the punch end prior to hitting it with the working strike, this tends to dislodge the tool from its original location and consequently is not effective, or accurate.

Classical example of this is someone inexperienced, marking out with a cold chisel, and when they look at the work, it has a number of lines and it is difficult to determine the correct one. The chisel has jumped from where it should be struck hard with the first touch of the hammer, it may only be a small amount, but it will make a difference to the proper location.

I hope I have described this adequately for anyone to understand what is happening.

Be confident and strike your tools firmly with the first blow, you control the tools, grip them firmly but not tightly and the shock won't transfer through your hands/wrist/arm. Same applies when holding your hammers, and don't work when you are tired (or the work is, anneal it when necessary)

[facium]

I guess I'm gunna have to clean out the garage and make a shop

[Pyromaster]

Hello all there!

I'm start to learning blacksmithing in this summer, tomorow I will start the fire:)

I have read a lot of inform in this forum, and like to say a big: hello I'm here!

sincerely Pyromaster

[RAR2]

I've been scratching my head on how to make a forge to heat the copper I work on. Your information about the stove gave me an idea. I don't have a gas stove in the house but I do have a camping stove. I think I'll give it a try. Thanks! Ron