harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Hi everyone, I have been lurking a while, and finally had the time to introduce myself. Recently I have find the will and time to start forging. My grandfather was a blacksmith and I have his anvil and some hamers. Photo of the anvil and some stakes. Not all the stakes fit the anvil but the other anvil and forge were sold without me knowing So now i am cleaning his hammers, and going to build a gas forge . My plan is to just start with the "easy" stuff like leafs and stuff, and will see how it goes. I work in a small machine shop with 13 employee's and the boss and me at the office. Kind regards, Harm van de Wetering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Welcome from the desert outside of Fabulous Las Vegas Nevada. I am also a machinist by trade. What kind of parts do you make in your shop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Thanks We make all kind of parts, we have mills, lathe, welders and a waterjet. We make single of parts and small series for all kind of companies. So no day is the same and we do many different kind of work. I am a "engineer" but i do know a little machining and getting better at it as the newer machines are more computer controlled and i am more computer schooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 The stakes with a pointed taper are not made to go into an anvil but rather a stake plate or a stump. As old anvils generally had the heel forge welded on, putting a wedge in the hardy and hammering on it is a VERY BAD IDEA!. My Parents spent 4 years in Naarden and I got to visit a couple of times. Nice Country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Oke, nice to know, still some stakes fit the anvil, but i will post that as soon as i have it moved in my garage. And i will have to search the old garage for a stake plate. Naarden is a very lovely place indeed, the netherlands is nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Are those hard firebrick with a low insulating value? if so they will make a forge that takes a long time to warm up to using temps and so be expensive in gas to run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Yes, i think they are, they are heat resistant till 1750 degrees Celsius (according to the specs) but isolation will not be that great, i plan to pack them in steel. If it is still not good, we have some fire resistant isolation sheets at work so that is still a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Steel that is worse at isolation than the bricks? Look into the isolating refractories! We use a lot of Kaowool here in the states and most of the build it yourself forge plans use it and then coat the face of it with a protective refractory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Welcome aboard Harm, glad to have you. In English your name is PERFECT for a blacksmith, I love it. I have a question about your terminology I THINK you use the term "Isolation" in reference to slowing or preventing heat transfer. Yes? It's synonymous in many ways to our term "Insulation," but there are potential differences that may throw off the conversation. Common consensus among most home or hobby blacksmiths regarding lining a propane forge (furnace.) is an outer liner of Insulating (Isolating?) refractory ceramic refractory blanket is popular and effective. There are light weight, insulating fire brick available recently that will withstand the rapid thermal cycling, (heating and cooling) found in propane forges. Either makes a good outer liner to prevent heat transfer through the forge walls. Make sense? The flame face or inner liner needs to withstand the high temperature chemistry propane flames produce and be mechanically tough enough to withstand us poking steel around on it. For the most part it does NOT need to be thick, I find 1/2", 12mm. thick enough for the forge floor and most physical abuse. The walls and roof can be thinner, say 3/8" or 9mm. If you plan on fire welding, the most common fluxes available contain borax which is very caustic at welding temperature so the flame face needs to be resistant, high alumina refractories fit the bill. Currently "Kastolite 30 li" is the effective popular hard refractory for the flame face or inner liner. It is a water setting, high alumina bubble refractory. The bubbles are evacuated silica spherules the lower the weight AND add insulation (Isolation?) to the flame face making it more protective of the more delicate outer "Insulating," Isolating(?) liner. Last is a thin coat of kiln wash as a final protective layer inside the forge chamber. Depending on what you use it can improfe forge effectiveness. Zirconia bearing kiln wash re radiates heat strongly and is close to chemically inert. Avoid ITC-100 though it contains zirconia it is NOT a good choice as a forge kiln wash and it's very expensive. The last thing to consider is the "shell" this is simply the container you use to hold your forge together. It only needs to be strong enough to support the forge and your work, sheet metal is fine provided it is reasonably rigid, flexing the forge WILL cause the hard inner liner to crack and break up. I don't know metric sheet metal thicknesses but THINK 2mm is plenty where 5mm is a lot more than you need but it's not excessive. I HOPE that makes more sense than confusion. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 15 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Steel that is worse at isolation than the bricks? Look into the isolating refractories! We use a lot of Kaowool here in the states and most of the build it yourself forge plans use it and then coat the face of it with a protective refractory. That is true, steel is worse off course, will look in to the wool. Thanks. Yeah it always raises eyebrows when i say mij name in English speaking countries. Yeah my English is a bit rusty but indeed i mean insulation. Wow that's a lot of information at once, thanks. It all makes sense, only i don't know f i am going to do it al in my first furnace build. I am going to look for a insulating blanket so the heat will stay in en i will have a look for what to use in/as a flame face. In the future i would like to fire weld so have to think of something to use as a flame face (will have a look on the forum) . The kiln wash i have to read in to, I didn't know that existed. Yeah the shell should not be a problem and I think with a thick bottom plate the rest can be made out off 2 or 3 mm.. Thank for the advice Frosty, it makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Read the section on building gas forges (and burners) https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/47439-forges-101/ https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/ A LOT of information indeed!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmvdw Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Yeah i have started, and it is a lot. So I am very happy with frosty's "short" list of advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Your English is excellent Harm, I speak maybe two words in Dutch. I forgot to talk about brick forges. IF you can buy Morgan thermal ceramics K-26 or the equivalent insulating fire brick you can simply clamp them together in combination to build a forge. I have a couple cases of the old style IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) I use as a simple brick pile forge to test chamber: size, shape, burner placement and orientation. I rarely leave one of these test forges running long enough to come to heat, I look for the shape of the burner flame and how it distributes in the chamber. There is no need to let the test chambers come to heat. The old type IFB can't take the rapid thermal cycling nor the temperature a typical propane forge reaches, they degrade quickly and typically start breaking up by the second or third heat. Plistex or Matrikote are good high temperature high alumina kiln washes though they don't contain zirconia. Regardless they do a very good job of the final layer of protection for furnace interiors, including flame face brick. I think you're going to fit right in here. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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