Peppie Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 Designing a press. Look for a site that sells an in tank hydraulic pump. Also looking for motor size to power such pump??? Peppie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 Call your local hydraulics supply or service shop on the PHONE, email won't get you anywhere asking questions like this. If you want an example of what you're looking for search, Portable hydraulic power Pack . Northern Hydraulics, amongst I don't know how many other hydraulics companies, WILL have one that'll work, just don't think it'll be cheap. Heck, just pick one, there are pages of lists of units with specs. I hate to say it Peppie but this was a seriously easy web search or phone book question. It's the kind of shall we say, lack of "do for yourself" that triggers curmudgeonly responses, like. "Do you need someone to wipe your . . . chin, for you too? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppie Posted May 1, 2019 Author Share Posted May 1, 2019 Did a search last night, and came up empty. All I found was hydraulic powered water pumps. Thanks for the reply Frosty. BTW. I prefer soft Charmin for a .......wipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 It helps to know what terms to use. Northern was our go to and seemed to supply all the smaller outfits around Alaska. You're probably within easy driving distance. Sorry about the chin crack, I probably needed a cookie. Thanks for taking it so well, it's the mark of a Charmin guy. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 Home brew hydraulics often costs just as much as a pre-packaged unit once you get all the "goodies" needed together..so don't dismiss the option of just buying a pre-made set up. It hurts your wallet but is often WELL worth the expense. Typically for a useful forging press, you are looking at a minimum of 3 hp to be serviceable and 5 to be nice to use. Low HP units only sort of work and tend to be so slow in stroke that you can have a beer while waiting for the ram to "get there" and retract. They'll drive you nuts and you'll wish you tossed the extra $ at the project in short order. As an alternative, check local industrial auctions...like the guys north of you in Kenmore. They have hydraulic units all the time that are in the general range you will need. Sometimes they run a little large but it's easier to make over-sized smaller than undersized larger. Their kenmore auction every 2 months typically has 2 to 5 for sale (but not always). It might give a starting platform that saves you a ton of money and hassle. Although mine is a single stage pump, I've heard tell on this site that 2 stage is awfully nice to have for the speed. I wish I had that speed basically every time I use it. It's also only a 3 hp 220v pre-packaged Parker unit and I wish I had gone for the extra HP for the volume and speed issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppie Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 Frosty, That is were I was going wrong on my search.. My terms for my search were to wide spread. Your cookies are on the way. I've read enough on here to realize your bark is sometimes to the point. At times that is exactly what needs to be brought to someone's attention. I myself dont like to have facts surger coated. Kizzy, thanks for the info, it is very helpful. I am trying to decide if my wallet is fat enough to go this route . I just finished a 24 ton press build. I enjoyed it so much, I am designing another 16 ton. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppie Posted May 2, 2019 Author Share Posted May 2, 2019 Holy cow!! My wallet isn't that fat!! If I were to go that route with a 5 hp unit..... I wouldn't have any cash-Ola left for hoses and fittings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 For an in tank pump pretty much any flange mounted pump should work and you need to put a suction pipe down to close to the bottom of the tank. I have seen power packs made with an inspection cover on the top with the pump mounted to this as the drawing the a monkey with a burnt stick drew up for me, the silicon around the flanges of the bellhousing keep the oil away from the coupling as the oil eventually softens the rubber. Oh and two stage pumps are usually cheaper as well though dont go for the real cheap ones of doubtfull parentage as the internal seats in the pump quickly fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 How many PSI and GPM are you looking for Peppie? What's the displacement and throw length of your ram? Motor HP isn't really a very good way to judge the suitability of a hydraulic unit. Oh sure it takes power no matter which factor is most important but it's a balance between gpm and psi, you can increase one by lowering the other. This can be done in two main ways: in the pump, higher the volume the lower the pressure per motor RPM. The other is the ram. Large diameter = high push but slow. One of the guys in our club made a nice little press with a small dia ram. It moves at a good rate but doesn't produce a lot of force on the dies. He made smaller dies. I don't recall what power pack he has but it's not a high end unit. I'm looking at one on Northern Hyd site that makes 2 gpm with a max of 2,900 psi. Not great but okay and the price is $439.99 There's a 7 GPM, 900 PSI Honda Gasoline powered unit for $1,199.99. Not a lot of pressure but with that kind of volume you can drive a large piston for fast and HARD smoosh. Farther down there's a tasty looking power pack, 208 - 230 v AC, pushing, 7.4 GPM at up to 2,300 PSI. for $ 950. Oooh BABY! So, looking down it's data page and . . . DRATS 3 phase! If you have 3 phase or a converter on hand this one's a winner in my book. Lots of volume for speed and plenty of pressure for smoosh. I haven't looked at a power pack more expensive than the $1,200 unit. Any of the ones I mention will work if you design for it. Okay, the 1st. 5HP unit produces 3.5 GPM @ 3,000 PSI Not great but it'll make a smaller dia piston move fast enough and have good smoosh. It's 230-460v AC 3 phase and $1,500. The next one is 2 HP. produces 1.5 GPM @ 2,000 psi max but the motor is 115 - 230 v AC single phase to that's a plus. You can't just look at motor HP it's only one of the factors that count and not at the top of the list. It's like trying to decide what vehicle to buy based on HP. HP doesn't make cars go it's torque that's the important #. Yes? Tell me what piston you have Dia. and throw and how much tonnage you're looking for. I'll do a little shopping and show you what to look for. This stuff looks a LOT more confusing than it really is once you know what to look at and develop a good mental image. I changed my analogy depending on the job I was making hydraulics do. Sometimes I think of the PSI vs GPM ratio like it's gear or pullys other times like it's a lever. Levers and gear ratios are exactly the same thing, a gear is a lever that goes all the way around. A transmission is a series of compound levers. Okay, I'm drifting off into memory land and if I keep it up I'll make things more confusing. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) Yes as Frosty says for fast a powerful you need Horse power, My previous post was assuming matched components Edited May 3, 2019 by Mod30 excessive quoting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppie Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 Thanks for offering up some reasonable options Frost. It is much appreciated. On my last press build I used a 2 stage 11gpm pump powered by a 3450 rpm 5hp single phase motor. The second stage pushes the 5" bore at 3 gpm. Giving the ram speed .59 " per second. I found that comfortable while using this 24 ton press. For the new press I am designing, I will be using a 4" bore x 6" stroke cylinder. I "assume" I will need a pump that will provide a minimum of 3gpm to achieve the same speed as the 24 ton press mentioned above. I am not so much worried about the total tonnage of this new build. Anywhere fro 12 to 18 tons would be acceptable. If I am able to increase the speed of the 4" ram for a reasonable price ,I would like to have it closer to 1 " per second, but doesn't need to be more than 1.5" per second. Not sure how to relate ( or calculate) psi into this scenario The units you mentioned in your reply were much more affordable for my build, as opposed to the units I thought I may need to pull this build off. You have given me new hope. Popeye needs a little brother. Peppie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 If you use a 4" ram then the tonnage you will get will be 4/5 or 80% of 24 tons so that will be 19.2 tons at the same operating pressure and you will get 5/4 x the speed which is 1.25 times the speed. Its as Frosty says its like gearing and as you dont give the max pressure I am assuming it will be the same as before for those answers I have given. If you want the same speed as before then you can put a smaller displacement pump on the same motor and pump a higher pressure which if you have the same power input will give the same performance that is speed and tonnage as the first press with the smaller ram with the greater pressure. I hope this helps Cheers Beaver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 5 hours ago, BeaverNZ said: Yes as Frosty says for fast a powerful you need Horse power, My previous post was assuming matched components That's not what I said. Except maybe in the most spurious or semantic of contexts and I have zero interest in that kind of . . . "discussion." Peppie: Your 2 stage hydraulic pump doesn't slow to 3 GPM until it meets resistance, the stock between your dies. I don't understand what you're saying here a power pack produces volume AND pressure. A 2 stage first produces a high volume and lower pressure and when resistance is encountered higher than the trigger setting the second stage produces lower volume and higher pressure. You're mixing your terms. You have a 2 stage pump: stage 1, 11 GPM @ an unknown pressure then stage 2, 3 GPM at an unknown pressure. The pump doesn't care if the piston is 4" or 5" it will push it @11 GPM to the trigger point then @ 3 GPM. to the stall point. The speed of the ram will be effected by it's area in an inverse ratio to the force it can apply. What you need to know to calculate the piston's work is GPM at a given PSI. Make sense? I need both GPM AND PSI for both stages or I can't make very meaningful suggestions. There are intricacies I'm glossing over as they'd just confuse things more than I already am. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppie Posted May 3, 2019 Author Share Posted May 3, 2019 TY both for taking time to educate me on this subject. The working pressure will be 2500psi . The single stage pump ( preferably) between 3 to 4 gpm. The ram is 4" bore. Looking to get (fingers crossed but not holding my breath) a minimum 1" per second speed. I would even consider a 3" bore if it would yield me 12-16 tons. And increase the ram speed. It seems that most all the 3hp or larger motors are 3ph. In that case I would need to purchase a converter. That would increase the price to the point were it would work better for me to piece together a power pack with a single phase motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Maybe I wasnt being clear enough but I was trying to compare the difference between a 4 and 5 inch ram hence the fractions as the area of the piston changes by the same precentage as the dia changes and the results it produces. And Im not sure frosty was getting at In the last coment but never mind, but to have a high tonnage pushing quickly you need more power (Hp or Kw ) than the same force traveling at a lower speed I hope our efforts have helped cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 11 hours ago, BeaverNZ said: Im not sure frosty was getting at Obviously. All you seem to know about hydraulics is, need HP. Sorry Peppie, there are too many distractions I keep getting sidetracked by the noise. If you have questions please feel free to PM me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 When I say you need Hp I am assuming its its matched to the correct sized pump to use it, Power at speed req more volume that can be pumped at pressure its a fact. While I am all for scrounging and dumpster diving which I am all ways on the lookout for miss matched hydraulics never work properly and can be dangerous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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