Making Pin holes in rams horn

[Markowitz]

Hi, Sorry if there's already a topic on this (and if I posted in the wrong section) I searched using the google "site:iforgeiron.com" function. I'm making a Bowie Knife and I'm going to use Ram's Horn as my handle material. I've heard Ram's Horn is brittle and I only have 6 Scales or 3 Pairs and was wondering what's the best way to drill pin holes without cracking or breaking it. 

Thanks in Advance. 

[templehound]

I work with rams horn and in my opinion it is not brittle at all. It is horn.Compared to bone it is rather soft.

It will shrink, sometimes warp the sooner or later, especially on flat tang scales.I prefer, due the "joy motion"of the material always doomed pins.

If the rugged surface is ground away it is very delicate when riveting pins....so I take care to get as much rugged surface as possible.

IMHO looks more like I want it and making doomed pins is much easier.Due the taper of the scales the rugged surface near the bolster is mostly ground away and I only have to take extra care for the pin next to the bolsters

If pressure occurs, the keratin layers on top will spall and leaving a bright round circle around the pin head, very delicate with dark horn.Can be done well, but with some extra attention and good soft annealed pin stock. 

best way to drill holes is with a sharp drill bit and moderate pressure.It will also get whitish-brown circles around the pin head when drilled too hot.

If flat grinding the scales only use fresh, new, sharp belts.Give very little pressure, let the grit do the work.It tends to get too hot too fast and warps a lot.So keep it cool and after grinding keep clamped in a vise or clamps until You work with it.let them rest two days and if you dont work with them, never leave them unclamped....they warp immediately.

Hope that helps and good luck

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

What about pushing a heated pin through the horn instead of drilling. Stinky, but should not create any cracking issues.

[templehound]

3 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

What about pushing a heated pin through the horn instead of drilling. Stinky, but should not create any cracking issues.

Hi BIGGUNDOCTOR, ...but it will burn the horn around the holes and causing the horn get partially too dry.The horn will not like this.

....but drilling is still the best, easiest and fastest way to get a hole in a rams horn scale if You want it nice and clean.

Grinding rams horn can deliver a very unpleasant smell of feces....it is one of the most bad stinky materials to grind....but I am used to that.

But it is still a natural smell compared to micarta ....that smells IMHO chemicaly evil. 

Stinky is not an issue to me....as long as the knife is kicking

Cheers

[Frosty]

Templehound: I'm not a bladesmith but I appreciate good information. Your horn working how to is a wonderful thing to add to my mental tool kit. Thank You.

I may never make a horn handled knife but lots of tools and utensils have handles and horn is common and popular here. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[templehound]

Frosty, You are welcome....my pleasure

There are a few aspects I think, which are important, but I forgot to mention(there are certainly more that I forget right now, but ok....)

I remembered a knife, from which I still have pictures, that had black rams horn and nearly complete ground surface.

On that scales there is around the front pin an up swelling visible. Shows how soft the horn is and how important it is, to get right size of countersink. The flaw is less, actually I think it is something natural that physics creating in the fine range....or, accept better than despair.

in fact it is an evidence of the pulling effect that countersink and pin develop from the scale to the tang.

What makes it a bit random is, that rams horn has different zones of hardness.So riveting black, clean ground rams horn is something that can be prone to flaw, or a bit dependent on luck.

Rams horn can be cooked in water and still hot, easily be pressed straight flat between two plates in a vise.

This is not possible with most kinds of African wild horns as for example Oryx antelope and Roan antelope . Oryx antelope is the hardest horn I know and worked with. 

Horn is very light in weight, works very easy with sharp tools and the tools, only worked on horn stay sharp a long time.So working with it is cheaper than working with stag, bone and teeth. As a slaughterhouse waste, domesticated horns are one the cheapest materials on many kind of handles for hand crafting.

But apart of all difficulties that strongly textured horns contain, they make IMHO one of the  most exciting looks on a knife......most savage, so to speak

Cheers

 

[Frosty]

When you say "upswelling" around the front pin I'm seeing evidence the pin is harder than the horn when you ground or sanded it. The horn looks almost like it's climbing the pin a tiny bit. Am I looking at the right thing?

I THINK what I'm seeing is normal when: grinding, sanding, buffing, etc. two different things in contact that are different hardness.  A hard cutting tool like a file can make a smooth transition but the nature of a flexible abrasive means it flows up and over the harder while it cuts more deeply in the softer. You can get other weird effects, especially with belt sanders, the belt forms a bulge, similar to a boat's wake when it hits a harder material causing it to flex in the direction of least resistance. This action can cause the softer material to be higher than the harder. 

I've done a little bit with antler but not enough to observe the results of sanding and polishing around pins, bolsters, etc. Who knows I may make a knife someday. (I just say things like that to give the bladesmiths around here who've been trying to tempt me over to the dark side a little false thrill. I'm BAD that way. )

Frosty The Lucky.

[templehound]

.... Frosty, I nearly felt tempted to tempt you

 You are looking at the right thing.

I always finish the surface of the scale before riveting the doomed pins, and after that nothing can be done much more that wont create a circle around the pin head, which I do not want to happen.

And You are right, constructing, working or grinding two completely different materials together equal, can offer a box full of weird and remarkable physics.

...actually it is a nice subject for its own topic....steel grinds in cross section much easier and cooler than length wise. On wood, especially hard- and ironwoods it is the same  ....the same grain pertinent thing ....so equal and yet so different.....must be that Yin and Yang case...so different like when looking at "heat"..., you put a fresh plum in the sun, first it expands and then it pulls itself together and shrinks....but I am drifting away from topic...well,  getting holes in rams horn is the red line of context.

If we are funny, we could discuss the worst case scenario, when riveting goes bad and how to get the pin out, without damaging the horn....

...and here textured  rams horn is the winner....the horn on the surface is actually heavily weather damaged .....that gives a nice wide tolerance in damaging when working failed pins out of a scale....with a scribe and oil and sometimes a bit leather dye it can be easily reconstructed....or "re-damaged".

Cheers

 

 

[Frosty]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:29 PM, templehound said:

.. Frosty, I nearly felt tempted to tempt you

Does the temptation include a round trip plane ticket? 

Grinding belts have their own behaviors, sometimes good other times ruinous. For example; you can't do a decent job of sharpening lathe cutters and drill bits on a belt. The belt bunches up and blunts the edge however if you drag it the belt makes a wire edge and ruins the edge angles. 

Grinding lengthwise on the platen means the belt is in hard contact for a longer time and you have to apply more pressure for the same effectiveness. Of COURSE more heat builds in the work.  Grinding lengthwise on a wheel is a different matter, a good way for guys with little experience like me to make even cheeks and bevels. 

 Part of the reason I took the collaboration Seax from Theo is I built a new tool and needed to learn a new skill. I can sharpen machine tools, but I'd never done more to a blade than clean up damaged bevels and finish with a stone. I've managed to hammer one valuable lesson into my hard head already. Too weak a motor increases the probability of screwing things up. Every time you place a blade against the belt there's a risk of missing or bobbling and ending up with a dip to have to clean up. 

That Seax is going to have a bobble in it, I've screwed it up enough. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[templehound]

On 4/20/2019 at 2:19 AM, Frosty said:

Does the temptation include a round trip plane ticket? 

....I fear that is over my personal party budget....but if You are around, stop by and lets do  a blade together....

....with rams horn scales, of course

Rams horn is tricky and sometimes can be frustrating to work with but it is so beautiful that I challenge the difficulties again and again.

.....this man is into ramshorn, he says:

"...is unique in his own way, because every single set up of horns comes with its unique set of problems."...that is the very truth.

....I like the video and I like the guy and his passion and I would like to share it with you guys....let there be horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHDPg9RXUm0

Cheers

 

[Frosty]

If we get to Thailand I'll be sure to look you up. I'll do my best on a blade but no promises.  

The Seax is getting a Myrtle wood handle, I've had it on a shelf since the mid '90s for knife handles. Shortly later I discovered I'm not really a bladesmith guy. Forge the preform is no problem but I didn't have the skill sets nor desire to learn them at the time. My experience associating with that character pretty well . . . Nevermind. 

I have the grinder and would like to play with pattern welds, see what I can develop. What I make with it . . . ? 

Frosty The Lucky.