Hammer Shape and Its Effect on Precision

[jeremy k]

Sounds like someone is going to have to make up some pattern welded billets, and show the cross section views of how the metal is moving, blow for blow.   :-)

I think what Jennifer is trying to get thru to everyone, is the "feel" of how metal moves once one does it for long enough to get the second nature feel of how metal moves?

I think Mark Aspery's definition of the cow poop effect of how metal moves is pretty good.

[jlpservicesinc]

34 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Well, obviously this is a complicated problem with many variables. What I'm trying to do with these drawings is isolate out the extraneous factors and focus solely on one variable at a time.

Ok,         A straight on blow will give as in drawing 2..      If you slide the hammer in an arc and hit with a flat face as in drawing 3 you are correct..   I"m having a time flux moment  right now.. 

The change happens as Frosty pointed out that the PSI going into the metal will be less with #3 as the force is being put in a different direction instead of straight in..   

When I reference smearing.. Its not really  a great term.. 

If you have time..  Take a bar of 5/8" and mark at 1" and forge it down  out flat to about 1/4" or a little less .. Do no corrections for width hit it as flat with the hammer as you can.  Do no corrections at all and forge as flat as you can keeping the shoulder once started against the anvil face so you get as close to a 90 D at the shoulder as you can..  Remember to keep working just the center of the offset over the anvils edge..  Just about like making tongs.. but thinner..   

Then look at the side profile and it should look something like this..  incise a light line or 2 with a cold chisel so you can just see it or find some rusty metal, or hot rolled steel sometimes has rolling lines in it,  so you can see how it moved after the forging..   Start at a yellow or white heat..  count out how many hammer strokes it takes to get to this size and shape.. 

Use a hammer size you are comfortable with so you can get it all done in 1 heat.. 

Sadly I don't have time today Or I would go shoot video..  I'll do it tomorrow as this would be a neat little video segment..   So John, If you don't have time today the video even if shot tomorrow would be ready tomorrow night or the next morning..  

I have to leave so will add the next drawing when I get back..   

Jeremy K..  I think it's pretty good to.. The cow poop thing..  

58 minutes ago, jeremy k said:

Sounds like someone is going to have to make up some pattern welded billets, and show the cross section views of how the metal is moving, blow for blow.   :-)

I think what Jennifer is trying to get thru to everyone, is the "feel" of how metal moves once one does it for long enough to get the second nature feel of how metal moves?

I think Mark Aspery's definition of the cow poop effect of how metal moves is pretty good.

Sadly.. This is one of those things that it's easy to learn,  but it's complex in action..  It's a lot easier just to teach someone to hit straight with a hammer.. 

Do this directional forging stuff can create results which are not as well controlled starting out..  I use this all the time for forging Cusps for thumblatches, finials for hinges, latches, leaves, etc, etc..    But it does add a level of complexity initially and if to much power/pull is applied at the wrong time it can render a finial useless..  

Yesterday as an example I ruined a thumblatch by pulling to much and tore the metal in the cusp..      Metal when being moved likes to be compressed vs elongated or stretched.. this also needs to be kept in mind.. 

[SLAG]

I suggest that those folks who have difficulty envisioning the results various hammer blows on moving metal. And also "urging" it in desired directions, try using  light hammer blows on a "stick"/bar of clay. (plasticine if the former is not available). Results/effects are quickly observable. No heat is necessary. And the techniques can repeated or modified using the same "bar" of clay.

A small wooden works really  well.

I found that sculpting with clay, long before I began work at the smithy, was of extraordinary help in the latter activity.

I progressed rapidly to a towering level of Incompetence. Indeed I have never looked back, at all the carnage of mangled metal in my rear view mirror.

Seriously, give it a shot, clay is cheap.

If the clay or plasticine becomes to soft, put it into the fridge for a few minutes.

SLAG.

[Frosty]

9 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Frosty, I value you opinion as I do with every bodies here or anywhere for that matter...   

I find internet conversations to be very challenging for me and with the limited speed with typing or information that can be passed along.

I find it to both be irritating and  frustrating..   Because I think so much faster than I write or speak.. It's like all the words get jumbled up and the only advantage writing words has for me is I can proof read it over and over and over again..  And then it still has errors as to what I am trying to say..   The devil is in the details..  And this is what happened... 

I used to be a very generalized talker as it was very simple and since the person was 1 on 1 it allowed to just show something....  With this medium, I can no longer do this.. I have to be forced into being more articulate and specific with the written words If I want to get the information across in a useful way..    It's just how it is..   

I took no offense at what you said... And as you pointed out..  It was my generalization (though a miss giving) that put the hurt on...   Again I am sorry for that.. 

I love how well written your replies are and usually you end up clarifying the points which I can not express in written form..   

Again, I took no offense at what you wrote and understand how it was miss construed..   My bad,  I am very sorry..  
 

 

 

Gladly accepted Jennifer, thank you. Sometimes things just go sideways and participants feed off each other's mood, no big deal, it happens.

Face to face is way easier, wish we could hang, talk smithing and show each other what we mean with actions.

I figure if someone and I don't get sideways now and then we aren't talking enough. We good? 

Jer

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty, better than good..  thanks for accepting my apology... 

[jlpservicesinc]

Smoggy great idea..  It is way easier to see quickly and in a direct and timely fashion..  I really should carry it on hand but never think about it..   Would be much simpler than firing up the forge..   

JHCC , this exercise is to set a base line and to create a point that is easy to see and recognize..  Being able to hit even and square can be tough for a lot of people.. They forge great tapers.. But keeping bars straight well not so good.. Diamonds sure..  Anyhow, this will setup the base line for what happens next.. 

The next action is to forge the same item this time using the side face of the hammer..You can angle away or torwards at this point but ideally the hammer should angle the peen back towards you..  You will end up with a narrower result but longer in overall length with the same thickness of metal..  Again to set a base line and to feel what is going on..  

This is now starting to look at how metal will moved when directed to do so by using a fullering effect..   Understanding how fullering plays into the process showing the metal will move more in that one direction vs all like in the first example or lesson..     

The understanding of how the metal moves for a given shape..   (Shape)  becomes important as there are processes that would need to be done before something else..  Experience plays in here..  

I'll have a time today to film.. so will get it all on the same film later..  

[jlpservicesinc]

After talking about this and really looking at swinging the hammer I have come to  see certain points which I never really looked at.. I simply did them.. 

With this said.. I have spent the last  week forging daily about 3 hrs a day just mashing metal and looking at the results and then looking at comparisons of what others are doing or promoting. 

I have decided it might warrant it's own thread..  It's simple but it's also complicated as there are a lot of factors which play into which technique is used. though absolutely seamless..