Idea for improving cast iron anvil

[evfreek]

Hi. Just got back from the California Blacksmith Association's Spring Conference. A great time to be had by all .

As I was looking at the tailgate sales section, I noticed an anvil for sale for about $1 per pound. It looked pretty nice, and I asked the seller. Turns out that he is a well-known fellow around the blacksmithing Internet, and a typical blacksmith (good natured, honest, helpful). He told me that the anvil was dead. That's why it was selling for so low. He had an old hammer sitting next to the anvil, and asked me to try hitting it--gently. I did, and the anvil went "THUD" . He then explained that it is a Fisher anvil, which has a cast iron body and a steel top. The weld between the two had come loose. I gave it a very gentle tap an noticed the top move in relation to the anvil. A bad sign. He said, yes, you did see that gap move. Oddly enough, he added, the anvil was much better than the common cast iron ASO that you often see advertised on classifieds or Craigslist. In fact, he said that forging with that 200 lb anvil was just like forging with a good 100 lb anvil. So, the anvil had substantial value, and in fact, was priced more than fairly for a 100 lb anvil. Around here, 100 lb anvils sell from $200 to over $500.

This fellow is pretty well-known and recognized, and I believed him, even though I found it surprising that an anvil with a loose face can still be useful. Shortly after I looked at it, he sold it, presumably at the marked price. He also mentioned that it is very repairable. I looked closely at the gap and noticed that the crack was on the cast iron side, and that someone had tried to daub hi-nickel rod in to do the repair without doing a decent "V". I have never fixed something of this size, but I figure that a deep "V" grind with a nickel butter and a cover pass of hi-impact repair rod followed by 6011 or 7014 would do the job. It would be better than that poor quality repair, and the anvil might move up to an equivalent 180 lb. one. The seller said that an expert anvil repairer came by and recommended that the face be gashed out in several places with a cutting torch, and directly plug welded down into the body.

Meanwhile, I thought a little bit about all this, and came up with a creative idea. If this anvil is so easy to repair, why are all the people who buy poor quality cast iron anvils out of luck? :confused: Can't they use the same technique to modify (repair) a cheap cast iron anvil? Or equivalently, making more sense to me since I just saw a Chinese 55 lb cast iron anvil on Craigslist for $175 (ouch), "hardface" a piece of junk cast iron with a tool steel drop? Or, is it only an "easy" repair for an accomplished welder, and not for the typical beginner who finds himself stuck with an ASO? Intriguing idea, nonetheless.

[HWooldridge]

It's a lot of work to do what you suggest. Definitely possible - but much labor is involved.

I have added carbon steel plates to the faces of several wrought anvils that had either lost their plates or been broken with use. It's a lot of work to do it right and you need the tools and "know-how" to do it correctly. I rebuilt a 175 lb Trenton that lost the entire face; apparently, the weld was bad and the whole plate popped off at some point in the past. The smith that brought it to me wanted it fixed so we did some of the work together and he had a nice anvil when it was finished (welding and heat treating was required) but it was several days worth of work. Not everyone is inclined to put in the time. My 250 lb Peter Wright was repaired the same way - but I did it over 20 years ago and am still using the anvil so was definitely worth the effort to me. Everyone has to make the decision whether to modify an ASO or buy a good quality tool out of the chute.

[ThomasPowers]

Usually the cost of the materials and the time way exceeds the cost of getting a better anvil. To get it fixed right is not a beginner's project and you need some substantial welding equipment too. Right Pep?

[Frosty]

I've mentioned my idea for putting steel faces on cast iron ASOs and still think it'll work just fine. I'll give it a try as soon as I get my shop up and running.

Simply put I intend to braze or silver solder a steel face to an ASO. It works just fine for attaching carbides to steel bodies in high impact cutting teeth, drill bits. Soils exploration drill bits we hammered through frozen glacial till and into bedrock on occasion. The carbides almost never failed before the tooth body.

Frosty

[ThomasPowers]

The brazing temperature was below the tempering temp for the carbides right? For a steel top you may have to heat treat unless you get a steel with a very high temp hardness quotient; it's the heat treat that worries me about such a beast. Unfortunately most very high temp hardness alloys are very expensive; so it sounds like a great G job but may be iffy on cost/benefit ratio if you have to pay retail. OTOH it will probably be better than cast iron even un-hardened!

I have a very battered bridge anvil I'm trying to get repaired on the cheap---trying to talk a friend who is a welding instructor to make it a class project, I'd pay for the materials and his students could get the practice.

[Frosty]

No heat treating for carbides. But yes, an anvil would need heat treating but using the right braze or silver solder will put the steel at critical.

The quench needs to be right and allowing the residual heat from the body temper it should work. It's how the Sodorfors anvils were heat treated, under a big water tower with a metered flow and quantity per anvil weight.

Besides, I have the grader edge sitting here all wanting to participate and a brand new, untouched ASO that was given to me some years back. What's to lose?

Frosty

[HWooldridge]

I replated the Peter Wright with a piece of spring steel off a scrapped bucket crawler. I was lucky that two of the helper springs on this rig were a uniform thickness, the right width and about 3 feet long. After I cut the piece to length, heated and flattened it out of its curved position, plus the drilling and chiseling for the pritchel and hardy; I spaced it off the anvil with 3/8 round stock and welded it from the inside out to the edge with E6011 rod. A buddy and I flipped it upside down on a chain from a jib crane, heated it to light orange with a coal forge (that took about an hour), flipped it back over and set it on the ground then poured water from two wheelbarrows and a big galvanized tank on top of the anvil. It also took a garden hose to keep it cool enough not to draw the temper from the residual heat. This produced a good hard face but it really wasn't enough water as the heel around the hardy didn't get very hard - whatever you do, DON"T submerge a hot anvil in water as the steam pockets will make the face crack (been there done that on another repair) unless you have a lot of movement in the water - like a flowing river - I can tell you for certain that a stock trough doesn't work...

As you can see, this anvil is taller than normal but is a great tool and it has served me faithfully for many years of hard and frequent use.

[Frosty]

Looks good to me.

I'd planned on using a 2" trash pump and the 3acre 30' deep pond in the gravel pit down the road for my quench.

If that is my neighbor Jake doesn't sell his pit for "lake front homes" before I get to it.

Frosty

[Golden_eagle]

That means my 54.967 ASO is like forging on a 15-27 pound anvil?

[Frosty]

You lost me.

Where was the Earth shattering KABOOM? There was SUPPOSED to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!

Frosty

[evfreek]

Golden_eagle, I think that he meant that his 200 lb Fisher with a loose top plate was equivalent to a 100 lb. anvil. He is a pretty well established smith, and I believe he would know, since he has good anvils. An ASO without a steel top would not last long, even if it weighed 200 lbs. That cast iron is just too weak. This anvil had a steel top, which was just visibly loose. Since I did not have a hot piece of steel handy, I couldn't try it. Note, the steel must be hot. I was also busy thinking about all those folks who bought cast iron anvils and were unhappy with them. The resale value of these anvils is pretty low (unless you look at craigslist around here). I would never buy one myself and try to weld/grind/heat treat it. I did a big full pen weld once, and that was enough. One gets really tired of chipping slag. Plus, it is risky for the eyes. Maybe if I found a big chunk of something like cast iron or mild steel, it would be worth trying something like what hwooldridge did with his anvil. I don't think I would pay $1 per pound for such an opportunity, though. If it were free, and I could get a drop for $1 per pound or less, maybe...

[Frosty]

Got it, I'd lost the original direction of the thread.

Cast iron is extremely strong, consider a Nazel 3B for instance. It's virtually all cast iron with a fairly small steel die wedged to it and they generally hold up far longer than the people using them. 300lb+ tup weight and all.

Brazing an inch of Vascowear (grader blade) 4-5" x 14-16" will distribute the force to the point you could probably glue it to a block of wood or a cinder block. Vascowear will stop 70,000+lbs of road grader from 27mph to zero in a few inches without bending. I don't think it'll deflect under a hand hammer enough to damage anything under it.

Of course I could be wrong, I've never done it. I have used steel faced, cast iron bodied anvils more than a century old. My sodorfors is steel faced, cast steel bodied from 1933 and has zero sway.

Frosty