Laminating

[FERRARIVS]

Has anyone ever tried making a laminated blade- one with a mild steel core and tool steel edges? Not a Damascene type, but just straight forge welding of three bars with subsequent forging? I can get the welds, but they break under the shear force of shaping. Granted I'm just doing butt joints and clearly they're not ideal and know a 'v' shaped joint will work better, but it's a LOT of work initialy shaping the elements and I'm really hoping someone else has done it successfully and might be able to offer some pointers- my head's hurting from banging it against this particular wall

Thanks.

Matt

[ThomasPowers]

One of the big problems is having such a difference in forge welding temps between mild steel and high carbon, (in general a lot of the high alloy tool steels are not a good choice for this).

Another problem is that tool steels are much harder under the hammer so it's easy to shear the softer mild steel as it want to deform more.

If you are using a high alloy tool steel you may need a more aggressive flux as well.

I'm currently working on a pattern welded core with applied edge (Anglo-Saxon spearpoint); but it's all made from Wrought iron and wrought iron blister steel that I blistered. So I have it easy!

[FERRARIVS]

Yeah, I've heard iron is a whole lot easier when it comes to welding- I wish I could get some LOL Well thus far my experiments have actually been using all mild steel and I still break the weld, so I can't say I'm entirely surprised to hear high carbon steel will probably be more difficult.

[pete46]

can't mild steel be decarbed to get it to weld more easily?

[chyancarrek]

Hey Farravis,

I'm thinking I might have a stick of wrought you can have if you want to try it. I got it from a dismantle of a 19th century fence that got taken out by a car.

Given you're in BC and I'm in Washington, shipping wouldn't be too bad.

If I remember right the stick is 3/4" - 1" square and about 20 - 30 inches long.

I sold a bunch of it at a BS conference a couple years ago and the fellas who bought it really liked working with it.

It's rusty and looks like he** but it forges up nice. I just don't do anything with it.

Give me a shout if you're interested - I'll go dig around in the ol scrap pile and see if I can find it.

[imagedude]

The addition of carbon lowers the temperature required for forge welding. It is a lot easier to make pattern welded steel from medium/high carbon steels than it is to weld MS to carbon steel. Here's some I made from CS70 (1070) and 15N20.

[MooseRidge]

Try making a modified sandwich billet.... 3 sheets thick...

Mild steel
1/2 HC Steel, 1/2 Mild steel
Mild steel

Same process as Damascus initially, but without the folding... Then grind the edge down to the HC steel for your edge....

[MooseRidge]

Start with a larger piece of mild steel stock, split it halfway, and insert the HC steel.... Forge weld.... usually takes 2 or 3 times with lots of flux.....

Flux, get to forging temp, 30 secs of hammer, reflux, reheat
Repeat

Gives a good strong weld and adds some interest to the blade itself.....

[Steve Sells]

Many Viking Swords had iron cores with the outer layers welded over them. It is hard to address your issues with out more detail.

Using general terms is hard to understand, If the tool steel could be A2, its not gonna work, where as if the tool steel is W-2 it should be fine.

Welding the sandwich should pose no troubles, IF you are experienced with forge welding, You didn't state if you have tried others welds or if this is your first time. IF first. did you clean it well enough? flux? correct temp?

If you need a primer to help you get started, I have one I wrote at How to make Damascus Blades which explains forge welding and steel types.

[ThomasPowers]

Well he is not trying to do San Mai construction so give San Mai instructions won't help.

One difference with welding on the edge steel, (and by the way "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner has exampls of this construction in it). is that the welds dont get the multiple passes you get doing pattern welding where each time you weld you essentially weld all the welds over again making them better.

So multiple welding passed as has been mentioned will help.

I keep hoping that James Hrisoulas will chime in as he has a lot of experience in this. IIRC he has mentioned that his new book is going to include some info on this technique.

[Steve Sells]

Has anyone ever tried making a laminated blade- one with a mild steel core and tool steel edges?

Matt

San Mai translates 3 layers, how is this NOT san mai ? and if you read my URL it was general info about welding the metals.

[ThomasPowers]

Lets see I would do that as 1 core piece + 1 edge piece equals 2 not 3, right?

San Mai is used to refer to a sandwich construction with lower carbon bread and a higher carbon meat. Not the literal translation but how it is used by bladesmiths.

This is more like a piece of bread with a lower carbon center and a higher carbon crust.

Much tricker to weld in some ways, particularly the point region. (I remember Al Pendray welding up a blade made from alternating wootz and patternwelded chevrons at Quad-State one year which is like the point problem only more so)

BTW on your website you mention wootz as being medieval but never that pattern welding was early medieval as well, also the glossary doesn't have an entry for pattern welding and I would suggest the term "central asia" instead of India when describing the origins of wootz. (BTW have you picked up a copy of Dr Feuerbach's dissertation on "Crucible Steel in Central Asia" very interesting.) Also if that is a double lunged bellow in that picture it would date to the renaissance and not to the middle ages---came into smithing from the gold smiths that were using them first while the medieval smith was using paired single lunged bellows; but I'm sure you know all that and it was just a bobble in the description.

Will you be at Quad-State this year? I hope to drive in from NM for it.

[Steve Sells]

His post said edges plural, as did the quote I included above. And I am aware he is talking Oreo cookie (soft middle hard outer) that does not change the facts for forge welding.

The bellows was made as a double to work better at events, as I am lazy when it comes to pumping that all weekend long. Blame Mr Moran as it was his, I bought it from him a few years back. If I could get away with it I would power it with hamsters in Wheels, those little guys have boundless energy.

I will be at Tipton Indiana for the IBA thing first weekend in June, Don't know anything about quad cities, start a thread and tell about it ?

I do not have all the answers, in fact I have only a few, I was trying to help a guy that stated he was having troubles in welding some layers. Some time back I wrote that at my web site to help people understand what is happening, Sorry if you disagree.

[ThomasPowers]

Quad-State is the largest annual smithing conference in America held around the end of September in Troy OH---about half an hour from Dayton.

Most smiths know about it; folks will be coming in from Canada, NM, US Virgin Islands---a lot of us get together there to meet; it's sort of like the Pennsic of Blacksmithing with great tailgating too!

[Steve Sells]

Oh Yes... the southern Ohio thing. I do know about it, BUT thats the same weekend as the Metea Ren Fair I work. They moved the date a few years ago, when Fisher's event moved theirs to "our weekend" , and so now its are same time as the S. Ohio event. As the Only smith as this ren-faire, I don't want to lose my spot there :(

[ThomasPowers]

Sad, if it's a multi weekend fair, could you get an apprentice to do the show while you visit Quad-State?

When I lived in OH the only year I missed it was when I was out of the country; now I'm in NM I still try to make it every other year---it's that good. Back when I last attended IBA's hammer in; Quad-State was about 10 times larger and the tailgating was unbelievable---I had a friend from Canada come down just to buy stuff to open a smithing school.

I probably should have sent you those website suggestions by pm; sorry.

[Steve Sells]

No problem, and you are correct, I was also made aware that I need to explain distal taper too.

There are many things I am too opinionated about. (and I should not be) The web page comments are good for others to see too, as not everything on the web is totally accurate, and we all can benefit from scrutiny. Even the most l earned person, can make mistakes, we should always question what we read, and verify if it is the truth, nothing wrong with that.


and the Ren Fair is only 2 days.

[FERRARIVS]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

For clarity, I'm fairly new to forging in general, but have got the hang of many of the forming techniqes and I've done some successful welds (a handful). Not long after I posted my question I was able to weld the HC steel I have (1045) to the mild quite well- it's very strong. I hammered it a good deal and didn't break the weld as well. So at least that aspect I know I can do, and actually a variation of the sandwich idea did occur to me at about 0430 on Friday- using two strips of tool steel for each edge rather than just one. Welding one to one side of the mild steel, then flipping and repeating. Similar in effect to the split-and-insert, which I had considered but was concerned would be rather more difficult for me at least, and just the opposite pattern (HC into MS rather than MS into HC) as the 'sandwich'. The main issue it seems I'm left with is holding everything together- it seems tack welds are commonly used by guys for this, so I'll have to rustle up a 110V arc welder...

[FERRARIVS]

The addition of carbon lowers the temperature required for forge welding. It is a lot easier to make pattern welded steel from medium/high carbon steels than it is to weld MS to carbon steel. Here's some I made from CS70 (1070) and 15N20.

That's interesting- I'd have thought the opposite about carbon. And that's a beautiful piece. The blade I'm trying to replicate, however, is a simple Roman weapon that only has high-carbon edges welded to a low carbon body, so I definitely have to work with HC and MS together. Pattern welding will be another project ;)

[ThomasPowers]

Some of the roman weapons were plain wrought iron too! "The Metallography or Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" has an example IIRC.

The Romans also used piling as well.

As for the lower temp deal. Think of cast iron---melts a lot lower than steel does and the difference is only carbon content, cast iron has a lot more carbon than high carbon steel! Or high school chemistry---the more crud is in something the lower it's melting point is and higher it's boiling point. One example is solder: add tin to the lead and the MP goes down.

[Playinwitmetal]

I'm a Newbie... but wouldn't be easier for you is you anneal (sp?) the harder steels first? it should soften the tool steel a bit and make forging a little less stressful.

[Steve Sells]

I'm a Newbie... but wouldn't be easier for you is you anneal (sp?) the harder steels first? it should soften the tool steel a bit and make forging a little less stressful.

Welcome to the IFI site, nothing wrong with asking a question. Annealing does soften steels, but in the case of forging, its redundant, because the steel is getting heated up in order to be worked. So its general cubic state before being heated does not matter at that point.

[ThomasPowers]

Or to re-phrase that---it's the hardness of the steel at 1600 deg F that matters when you forge it; not the hardness at room temperature.

There are some high hardness steels that suggest annealing or soaks before forging as they may have severe internal stresses that would best be allowed to reduce before hitting them HARD!

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

just chiming in my 2 cents here: I've never had much trouble getting plain carbon steels to weld to mild, in this fashion, however, when I do it, I do it with short, FAT pieces of stock then draw them down to final size. Usually I'll start with 18-24" or so of 3/4 for the pieces. I taper the mild core and make sure the carbon pieces extend an inch or so past the mild. This allows me to get a wrap composition to the billet without actually having the hassle of the actual wrap. If you are hand welding I recomend at least 3 full welding passes over the billet to insure integrity, (I find pressing and power hammers weld reliably enough for single pass welds).