gates

[Joel OF]

Obviously size and proportions are a big factor but when you're making gates have you got any general rules of thumb you like to work to regarding:

1) The distance between the back stile and the hanging post.
2) In pairs of gates, the distance between the two leaves when they're shut

I'm thinking more for aesthetics than mechanics here. Cheers

[beaudry]

1 hour ago, Joel OF said:

''Obviously size and proportions are a big factor''

 Best way is to draw it up full size in plan view with the stock  you are using to see what will work.

You can mock up the  swing with a couple of sticks cut to the actual width of the gates  with a pivot point at the centerline of the hinge pin.   

Give yourself some adjustability in the design.

Don't forget to factor in any joinery details like collars or headed off tenons  or the latch that may make the gate wider in spots.

If it swings freely and functions like it should then it will look right as well.

Give things a little slack to compensate for some sag over time.

Make sure that the supporting structure of the opening is adequate to support the weight of the gate without sagging or distorting

This is one of those jobs that really benefits from some careful layout and planning.

 

 

[Joel OF]

Cheers for the thoughts.

[Gerald Boggs]

The aesthetics of gate design are very personal. What one might like, another will look upon with distaste. You live in England, just wander the countryside and you'll see hundreds of gates. From church lychgates to the gates of manor houses.  Look at them, study them, take photos, and make sketches of them and in time, you'll develop your own sense of aesthetics. But no matter what you design, the mechanics will effect what you can do, gravity is always there.

[ThomasPowers]

but please avoid the brutal minimalism of Tijou!

[Smoggy]

On 25/11/2017 at 1:39 PM, Gerald Boggs said:

You live in England, just wander the countryside and you'll see hundreds of gates. From church lychgates to the gates of manor houses. 

Probably not as many as folks would expect, Much of the older ironwork was lost due to the war effort and since then demolition of older buildings and residences has seen more disapear. Modernisation of older properties has seen them removed to facilitate drives and fashion has seen the rest off. Even industrial iron work has been lost in developments and in favour of modern security systems. I can count at least half a dozen stretches of steel (not even wrought) decorative fencing inc gates that have disapeared in the last five years on my short monthly walk to the local chemists. Even the church has replaced the original wrought with modern steel fencing (off the peg style) and omitted the gates alltogether when they widened the gateway to facilitate the use of the gardens as a car park! Yes there are still some fine examples to be found, but it takes a little more effort that one may imagine to find much at all. Now considering the town Iive in was built on the Iron Industry and at one time produced more steel than Sheffield, there's not a lot left now!

[ThomasPowers]

Victoria and Albert Museum in London?

[Smoggy]

Yes TP, there are the likes of heritage buildings and estates, but wandering the countryside you're more likely to find the odd old cast iron gate post stood alone or the old pintles in the brick columns where the gate used to be, if you do find any they are likely to be plain uniform straight bar, electricaly welded mild steel replacements of little interest. Bar the odd few intersting examples one may be able to find locally the best option is likely to be a peruse online.

[anvil]

And a fine business for a blacksmith,, across the pond is restoration smith.

[Gerald Boggs]

21 hours ago, Smoggy said:

Probably not as many as folks would expect, Much of the older ironwork was lost due to the war effort and since then demolition of older buildings and residences has seen more disapear. Modernisation of older properties has seen them removed to facilitate drives and fashion has seen the rest off. Even industrial iron work has been lost in developments and in favour of modern security systems. I can count at least half a dozen stretches of steel (not even wrought) decorative fencing inc gates that have disapeared in the last five years on my short monthly walk to the local chemists. Even the church has replaced the original wrought with modern steel fencing (off the peg style) and omitted the gates alltogether when they widened the gateway to facilitate the use of the gardens as a car park! Yes there are still some fine examples to be found, but it takes a little more effort that one may imagine to find much at all. Now considering the town Iive in was built on the Iron Industry and at one time produced more steel than Sheffield, there's not a lot left now!

That was not my experience when I was over there.  (Winter of 2003-4) I studied and took photos of what felt like a endless number of gates.   It got to the point I wasn't taking photos unless there was something different.

[Joel OF]

Thanks for the input folks.
I have made a few gates, both doubles and singles, so my question isn't really based around "how do I know what will work?", it's just curiosity of what spacings others typically use.

Sometimes studying old examples is more interesting than useful. Modern beaurocratic rules determining bar spacings (so kids don't get stuck between them) can make looking at old ironwork for guidance almost irrelevant. Local council "computer says no" to lots of old designs.

 

[Gerald Boggs]

Really?

[ThomasPowers]

I had some friends that ran a small business computer consulting company.  I used to carry their cards with me and whenever someone told me "The computer won't allow that" I'd hand them a card and tell them to get their system fixed...

[Joel OF]

1 hour ago, Gerald Boggs said:

Really?

For public work at all levels and private work above certain heights there's a very tedious max 100mm spacing guidance "rule" that you're best off not ignoring.

There's plenty of discussion about it on the UK Mig Welding Forum if you want to know more and lose some brain cells :-)

[Gerald Boggs]

Actually I was being sarcastic. I'm quite in a state of disbelieve that you would so causally dismiss the value of studying the works of old. Your country is so rich in architectural history. Aside from the bombings of London and other major cities during WW11, you haven't had a war on your soil since before my country became a country. Few other countries can claim such richness, we in America have very little of that. Here, we think of a building built in 1899 as OLD. I was only in England and Wales for 3 ½ months, working in my friend's (First smith I worked for) dad's shop. On the weekends, I would explore the countryside looking for ironwork to study and photo. My eye for detail and my understanding of both the artistic and functional sides of ironwork grew so much from that experience. Granted, I was in the land of the Davies brothers and got to see several examples of their work.

 

Sorry you're so bound by council rules. When I was in Shropshire, I build and installed several gates and there was never any issues from the council. I was under the impression that Britain was pretty much like the US, aside from codes for swimming pool and powered gates, there isn't any.  When Stokes of England built the millennium gate (2000) in Oswestry to commemorate the continuous tradition of fine handcrafted ironwork, nobody from the counsel come by and told them how to build the gate.

[Gerald Boggs]

casually

[Joel OF]

2 hours ago, Gerald Boggs said:

Sorry you're so bound by council rules. When I was in Shropshire, I build and installed several gates and there was never any issues from the council. I was under the impression that Britain was pretty much like the US, aside from codes for swimming pool and powered gates, there isn't any.  When Stokes of England built the millennium gate (2000) in Oswestry to commemorate the continuous tradition of fine handcrafted ironwork, nobody from the counsel come by and told them how to build the gate.

My original post was in part prompted by  a situation I find myself in where some public work I've designed is being fought by vindictive objectors wantng to use every ounce of beaurocratic rules to their advantage.

Happily there's plenty of situations and clients who'll just say "yep we'll ignore that rule" and some work just somehow skirts under the radar of the quite strict Building Regulations we have, you seem to have to been quite lucky to not come in to contact with.

Learning and appreciating old ironwork isn't exactly something that washes over my head. I do  live in a medieval city, have done work for churches that are hundreds of years old, have an architect Father that specializes in conservation of listed and historic buildings, have clients that properties that are hundreds of years old ....etc etc etc Appreciation is something that seeps in daily and is continually relevant.

To be honest I'm not really going to make too much of an effort to justify myself and don't really care if anyone mistakingly thinks I'm ignorant, it's just far too a complicated and nuanced conversation for an inter-continental forum when you're factoring in the rules of BS 6180, Building Regs Doc K and the design aestheiic of early 20th century Viennese art nouveau.