Appalachian Power Hammers

[larrynjr]

Looking at the basic design of the "Rusty / Dusty" AP Hammers and the Treadle hammer plans that are available from IFI. The basic framing seems to be about the same to me with at least one telling difference being the flat springs on the Rusty being used on the pivot arm on top and just the piece of 1 1/2" x 3/8" flat bar used on the treadle.

Appalachian Power Hammers

Is there a major benefit from using a flat spring for that pivot instead of the flat bar steel?

[keykeeper]

Larry,

I think I read somewhere that the Appalachian Power Hammer uses the spring to give it a "whip" action, thus more force on the downstroke of the hammer. The treadle would not need that, as there is not a camming action/linkage setup running the hammer, like the power hammer.

[larrynjr]

What I'm now considering is either building a Rusty style hammer instead of a treadle or a treadle that I could then convert into a Rusty. Would the solid pivot bar of the treadle still work for the Rusty or not provide enough snap power?

[ertwdan]

If you're going to put in the effort into a hammer you're better off looking at building the power hammer and ensuring that you encorporate a brake on the wheel. This will help you control the hammer to deliver 1 hard blow for using dies or set-tools(like a treadle) or full-on drawing down (like a power hammer).

Also check out the Clay Spencer Tire Hammer. It is also a junk-yard hammer, but it requires less of a footprint in your shop.

The treadle is a good starting point, but you really won't put too much more work into a power hammer and you can do so much more.

[Sam Salvati]

What I'm now considering is either building a Rusty style hammer instead of a treadle or a treadle that I could then convert into a Rusty. Would the solid pivot bar of the treadle still work for the Rusty or not provide enough snap power?

Larry, like Aaron said the spring pack as the top pivot is there to provide a slapping motion, if you had a hard link with the pittman then the hammer would come to peices fromthe directfeed back going into that part of the hammer, you need some give in between.

[ThomasPowers]

I second the idea that you look into the tire hammer!

[hammerkid]

HMMM ! I just got abunch of ideas , now all I need is a bigger shop ! I can get a washer or dryer motor from my uncle who just bought bigger washer& dryer , the old ones still work . :)

[R Funk]

As an mechancal engineer I donot see any snap action from spring shape.

I havenot done a detail analysis but see the ctrical isssue being thath the springs be assembled in tight packs with no free leaves and well guarded.

The sprung pack must be tight as a poorly guarded spring pack is likely to cause fatal injuries and a loose springing pack will cause operational irreqularities due to differring pring rates in the up and down operation of the hammer.

[Jose Gomez]

Another purpose of the leaf spring on the top of the rusty/crusty/dusty style helve hammers is to supply a flexible linkage used to couple the drive assembly to the ram. If a rigid bar or beam were used in place of the spring the hammer would only be able to strike at 1 precise measurement. Meaning, without the spring, if one were to attempt to forge on stock that was large enough to prevent the hammer from reaching the bottom of it's stroke the machine would bind up and essentially just clamp down on the work piece. The spring is in place of the rigid bar in order to suppy the drivetrain with a flexible point that allows the hammer's flywheel to complete its revolution without binding entirely. This spring is not necisarry on treadle hammers because the ram is couppled directly to the linkage that is driven straight up and down by the smiths foot, not in a circle like the flywheel of the spring helve hammer. If a rigid link is used on an Appalachian Power Hammer it will not function properly.

[Phil Dwyer]

If you're going to put in the effort into a hammer you're better off looking at building the power hammer and ensuring that you incorporate a brake on the wheel. This will help you control the hammer to deliver 1 hard blow for using dies or set-tools(like a treadle) or full-on drawing down (like a power hammer). Also check out the Clay Spencer Tire Hammer. It is also a junk-yard hammer, but it requires less of a footprint in your shop. The treadle is a good starting point, but you really won't put too much more work into a power hammer and you can do so much more.

Does the tire hammer have a brake?

[markh]

The Tire-Hammer has a brake. In my opinion, the Tire-Hammer is not a junk-yard hammer. I used one several times and own a copy of the plans. It will save a lot of money to build it from junk materials, but the design is well thought out and the performance is amazing. I think one reason Clay Spencer never started producing these hammers commercially is that he's the consumate teacher. He really enjoys the the fact that his design gives workshop participants a great power hammer for sometimes less than $900 dollars. I'm not trying to start an argument over what is and what is not a junk-yard hammer. I'm just very enthusiatic about Ray Clotz's idea and Clay Spencer's design. Clay sells plans, springs, and pulley wheels. I think it's a much better design than the App. Power Hammer, it has smaller footprint and it's not as dangerous. Also, if you like Little Giants, the Tire-Hammer is very similar but much easier to repair.

[ertwdan]

Junk-Yard is an affectionate term that I apply to all home-built hammers. The Tire hammer (much like the Rusty/Dusty) is always open to the interpretation of the individual smith. The best way to build one is to take one of the courses. Not everyone can make it to, or afford this method. That leaves guys like me to rummage through the scrap bin at work and prospecting through the junk-yard for materials that will come close to the Spencer designs. The real challenge in any home-built hammer is to construct something that is safe and effective.

Good luck building whatever you want/need, just ensure that they're well built and well-guarded. There are a lot of forces involved in one of these hammers, make sure that they never get directed at you.

[DonS]

The newer versions of the tire hammer have a brake. The motor is mounted on a pivoting bar. Stepping on the treadle moves the "Pulley" end of the motor up to contact the tire. When you take your foot off the treadle, that end of the motor drops back down, and the other end of the bar moves up. This end of the bar has a plate welded on it that contacts the tire and acts as a brake.

I have never seen a Tire Hammer, but I really like the small footprint. (I built the Rusty leaf spring hammer, and found that it takes up quite a bit of space- about the same as my treadle hammer. (About 32 inches x 18 inches wide.)

I have some left-over steel that is too small for a large power hammer (36 x 5 in dia.) so I am thinking of building a helve hammer as described in the Blueprints by Jr Strasil) just to see how it works. By its nature, the helve has to have slightly curved dies- good for drawing, but it is nice to have parallel flat dies for some work. I have combination dies on my Rusty hammer, and like the flat part for use with flatters and fullers.

[Phil Dwyer]

Not only have I not seen a tire hammer, I've never seen any mechanical, treadle or air hammer. I don't want that to dissuade me though. If that kind of thing put me off I'd not have a forge or much of anything. Never-the-less, I'd jump at the chance to see (and/or work with) any power hammers (foot, electric, air, hydraulic, tire, spring, stream, or steam!) It's unlikely I'll make it to a tire hammer workshop either, even if I did transport back to Hawaii would be a killer.

For those of you who have worked with the tire hammer plans how would you rate them? Are the plans comprehensive and clear enough? Are they comparable to Tracy Mickley's in their organization and presentation?

Thanks, Phil

[DonS]

Although I would be inclined to build a tire hammer, I don't want to discourage anyone from building a "Rusty" type hammer. They are quite popular, and seem to work well. It may all come down to the scrap you find.

Some more thoughts on building a Rusty hammer (all stuff that I had to learn the hard way):
Counter weights:
The tire hammer and the Little Giant hammers have counter weights in/on the flywheel. The weight reduces the side-to-side vibration caused by the top end of the toggle link assembly moving from side to side. This is important because the motion is from side to side along the narrow part of the footprint, it is up high, and the weight of the toggle links is significant. The counterweight should be about half the weight of the toggle link assemby since only the upper part moves from side to side.

The Rusty hammer does not really require a counter weight because: 1) you have to compensate for only half the weight of the pitman arm, which is light 2) the vibration is front-to-back along the major axis of the baseplate, and 3) it is down low.

You can't balance out the up and down part of the motion. Don't even try.

Anvil size:
My hammer has a 34 pound ram/die assembly. The anvil is 250 lbs. When I had the machine sitting on the garage floor, it seemed to work OK as far as I could tell, but shook the floor and stuff started falling off shelves. (Anvil to ram ration about 7.5 to 1.) Since I have limited space, I thought I would place it on a small trailer and wheel it into the garage when required. Even with the jack stands extended the strength of the blows seemed to be only half as effective as when the hammer sat on the concrete.

I gave up on the trailer concept and decided to make a permanent bench to mount the hammer on. I used a steel slab on short I-beam legs. Total weight of the bench is about 350 lbs. If I include half that weight as part of my anvil (only the part directly under or near the anvil) the effective weight of the anvil becomes about 400 lbs and the anvil-to-ram ratio becomes close to 12:1. I have a 2x6 and a piece of rubber belt under the feet of the bench to cushion the concrete a bit. It hits real solidly now, and confims what others have been saying about the importance of the anvil to ram weight ratio.

Flywheel:
My flywheel consisted of a 13 inch cast iron pulley (2 groves) and a 6 inch dia 3/4 inch plate for the crank pin mount. The associated problems with such a light flywheel were:
1) The 1 HP motor ran hot. The clip-on ammeter registered double the rated current on part of the revolution, and idle current on the rest of the revolution.
2) The small pulley on the motor ran hot, even when I did not slip the clutch.
3) The flywheel almost seemed to stall momentarily on parts of the cycle. Probably causing the belt to slip a bit even at full speed- overheating the small pulley.
4) Changing the size and number of leaf springs and location of the clamps in order to "Tune" the hammer seemed to have unpredictable results.
I eventually settled for a fairly limber spring with softer blows and 180 beats per minute max speed.

Last week I replaced the 6 inch crank pin disk with a 14 inch dia piece of 3/4 inch plate, increasing the weight of the flywheel from about 15 lbs to 45 lbs.

This fixed all kinds of problems. I even went back to stiffer spring by adding an upper and lower "helper" spring to the pack. As a rule of thumb, I would say that the flywheel (assuming it is about 13-14 inches or larger in diameter) should be at least equal in weight to the ram. Bigger is probably better, but if it is too heavy, starting and stopping the hammer will be slower, making it more difficult to strike a single blow. The flywheel and clutch on a 25 lb Little Giant looks to be about 100 lbs or more, and when a stock Little Giant stops, it seems to coast to a stop. The tire hammer has a 50 lb ram, and the spare tire and associated metal work probably weighs 50 lbs or more as well. Due to the large diameter and the wight distribution of the tire, it is a very effective flywheel.

Spring Assembly:

I hade one main leaf sandwiched between a pair of shorter leaves, and clamped them together a usual. The gap between the dies (at rest) was about 1/2 inch. I got full power blows on 1/2 inch material, but on thin stock, the blows were softer, because the (relatively stiff) spring starts to absorb some of that energy as the dies get close. I really wanted to increase the gap to 1 inch so that I could get some tooling or thicker stock in there. I solved this by clamping only the back end of the leaves together, and leaving the front end loose. I curved the lower helper spring so that it did not have any effect until the dies actually touched. That way, the spring assembly was stiff at the top end of the stroke, weaker at the bottom of the stroke, and still gave support to the main leaf when it started lifting the ram back up.

The resulting spring is "non-linear". This is also what the toggle links provide on the tire hammer and Little Giant hammer, but in an even more effective way. At rest you can easily bounce the Little Giant ram up and down a bit by hand, but as the ram gets deflected more and more, the spring becomes stiffer and stiffer because of the geometry of the links.

It is probably cheaper and easier to build a tire hammer than to restore a Little Giant if it is in rough shape. The Little Giant will probably have a higher resale value just because it is a cool-looking old machine that has a lot of followers.

I bought a couple of 30 inch x 8 inch dia pieces of steel at the scrap yard in order to build an air hammer and a tire hammer, but with the recent improvements in my "Rusty" hammer, I will put that on hold....still thinking about a small helve hammer though.

[JerryCarroll]

There's a picture of my rusty type hammer in the gallery. Scrounging took more time than building. I have about one hundred dollars cash invested. A 1 1/2 hp 3500 rpm motor from a damaged air compressor runs it. I made the drive pully by using a flange bought from the local farm supply and fitted with a 3" round oak drive wheel 2 1/2" thick bolted to the flange--turned true after getting it bolted together. I use a counter balance on the inside of the tire rim that smoothed out the running real nice. The ram and dies weigh out to 30 lbs. and hits a little over 300 hpm. No brake--it stops when I get of the lever. Several adjustment points make it adaptable to different operations. I kept it as simple as possible yet easy to use. I'm pleased with the way it works.

[hammerkid]

I`am fixing to start building either a rusty or dust type power hammer from my treadle hammer I got the motor from a washer.