19Branden86 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Hello everyone. I'm Branden. I was born, raised, and live in central Kansas. I just built a brake rotor forge last week as my starter forge. I'm a pure greenhorn when it comes to smithing. The only other metalwork I have done is 10 years experience as a welder, and 5 years experience with soldering copper and brass. My very first forging project was this set of tongs I was trying to make out of some 1/2" round stock from the iron bin here at work. As far as I know, it should be mild steel. I'm not aware of any high carbon alloys here at our shop. The problem I ran into is that after shaping and working the steel, all was going well until it was time to punch out and drift the rivet holes. Shattered it. The nib busted off as you can see as well as part of the reigns. (I was only hammering on the boss so how the reigns broke is beyond my understanding) Somehow, and I'm not sure what I did wrong, and perhaps you guys can give me some ideas, but somehow I managed to crystallize my billet. No water to cool it off, no dipping, no quenching or anything of that nature was involved. I'm not really familiar with the properties of iron alloys beyond just for welding applications, so I haven'ta clue of whether I got the metal too hot, or worked it when it had cooled down too much or a combination of rookie mistakes. Any ideas of what this completely newbie greenhorn might have done wrong and tips on how to not do it again to the best of my ability. I look forward to getting to know you guys and I'll be on here often, I'm sure, as I venture deeper into the art and science of blacksmithing. Good day Also, if this helps, the parts that broke off, the fractured areas looked like sugar or sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Welcome to the site. Fantastic job for a first try at tongs, wish mine had looked that good. I suggest for the first couple of tongs you drill the rivet holes rather than trying to punch and drift. Timing gets tricky for that operation, if you don't have a more experienced smith nearby to guide you through it the first time. I recommend that you practice punching and drifting on bar stock first (say 1/4" thick) to get a feel for how it is done. Typically I do my "front" punch at almost an orange heat and hit the punch no more than three times before cooling the tip of the punch in water (to keep the tool from overheating and deforming). Rinse and repeat until the punch feels like it "bottoms out" against the anvil. Steel should then be dull red at best, possibly showing no color. Flip billet and look for the cold black mark from your front punch. A quick punch on that side should knock out the plug. This needs to be done at a black heat or the plug will just deform to the other side. Needless to say it is easier with thinner stock. From what you are showing I can only expect that you were working the steel too cold. Remember as the crossection gets thinner it heats and cools more rapidly. I don't see any sign of your punching the bolster in the photo. Also check the steel to see if truly mild steel. Using mystery steel from the scrap yard is always a bit of a challenge. Test it with a "snap test" to be sure before putting too much more work into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodnMetalGuy Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I'm inexperienced also, but all I can think of is that it must not be mild steel like you thought. Something that air hardened, maybe? -- Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Branden86 Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 I know each grade of steel has a different "butter zone" if you will. I found a temperature/color guide to kind of help me gauge how hot my metal is (not sure on accuracy because it doesn't specify outdoor or indoor shop and the color can look different depending. I work outdoors, no canopy or awning). But anyway just as a general guideline, is there a certain area I should try to keep my material temperature/color? Not white hot, and not dull red obviously. But just a very general "try not to heat to above here and quit bashing on it like a Neanderthal below here" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Have to agree with the first reply, a fine attempt at forging a pair of tongs for a beginner smith. As for the problem; I doubt it is forging colour perception/temps related per say as regardless of working out doors or in, you soon know when the metal isn't moving under hammer or punch. I would suggest the second reply has hit the nail on the head. It isn't mild steel and could even be an air hardened stock. Having said that I'm not an expert so I'll defer to more learned input that is bound to come forth in due course, and will be doing so wth interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Branden86 Posted June 7, 2017 Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 Interesting stuff. I'll have to see if some of the engineer's tool steel made it to our scrap bin. See, we have tool steel at our shop. 4140 chromium tool steel. The engineers design and build our jigs and welding fixtures but they are in a different part of the shop than we are and have their own iron bin. They keep their steel separate from ours but I guess it is always possible that pieces find their way out of their proper receptacles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Proper forging temp depends on the alloy. Unknown alloy---well you'll have to be careful learning what it requires! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Branden86 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Obviously! Lol. I'll keep that in mind for future reference when I'm working with MM grade steel. Thanks Thomas! Hey, speaking of alloys, are HC railroad spikes actually high carbon or still a midgrade steel? When I was building my forge a friend of mine gave me a bucket full of them. So I upset the spike end, 20 Mule Teamed the heads down into a square stock billet. Was thinking about making S hooks out of them for practice unless they are, in fact, a decent steel, though I doubt that. They are what led me to want to make the tongs in the first place. Was using pliers to upset and forge weld them but even with thick leather gloves, the knuckles tend to get a little hot! Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 HC spikes are generally at the dividing line of low carbon steel and medium carbon steel 30 points C (100 points = 1% C) As to decent steel; it depends on for what?---They make dandy RR spikes for instance! They are only HC in that they have more Carbon than the old spikes did. As higher carbon contents are directly correlated with greater brittleness as well as higher strength there comes a time where you have to draw the line or watch as the heads of all your spikes shatter as a coal train goes around the bend..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Branden86 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Okay. Thank you for that information. And all the ideas/information the rest of you have provided as well. So indeed those spikes will become S hooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Branden86 Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 So I have given up on pounding a set of railroad spikes into tongs until I get a little more experience because right now, if this were Skyrim, my smithing level is at 0. So what i have done is drawn out a pattern on some 3/8 steel and am going to plasma cut it out and then form the nibs to how i want and punch the rivet hole out. I know that's kind of a cheater approach but, until I get better that is the best way I have figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Suggest you look at Ken's Custom Iron, who make their "Quick Tongs" in a similar method. Not sure if, including the cost of materials, labor and utilities you would be able to beat their pricing: https://kensironstore.com/collections/quick-tongs/products/best-selling-quick-tongs-bundle-set Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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