Rough shaping leaf swage

[windancer]

I bought a swage that forms the rough shape of a leaf. Not the veining, but the end taper and general shape.

I have tried everything I can think of to make it work.

Anyone have one that works? How do you use it?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[jeremy k]

Put your hot bar into it and turn the bar as you hammer on the swage(by hand with a striker, power hammer, or treadle hammer) to shape the end of the bar to a pre-leaf shape. I'm assuming its for 1/2" round bar.

 

[Mark Ling]

I don't see the benefit of using something like that. I don't mean for this to sound rude, but is it too hard to forge a point on the end of a bar and do a two sided set down? to forge the point, and do the set down, takes me 1 heat, and to finish drawing out the stem takes just one more. Also, with out the swage you will have more options and be able to do different leaf variations.

I know this isn't helping your question directly, but just thought I would mention it. I feel like I'm missin something on this whole swage thingy, it just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

                                                                                                                                      Littleblacksmith

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Windancer, 

           I have many spring swages and what most require is a pre-form to control the squish factor. I'm also with LB on this one "why" a leaf is not hard to duplicate several of the same. Maybe a picture of your swage would clear it up.

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

[Frosty]

How about a pic or two? A leaf die makes sense if you have a large quantity of consistent leaves to make. Say: holly wreaths, Olive branches, Mistletoe, etc. 

Leaves in quantity that are of a theme and easily recognizable.

Also it could be one spring swage of a set. You have a forge full of stock, the first die sets the pre-form the second die finishes the leaf and stem, third veins and trims flash.

Hmmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Sanderson Iron]

10 hours ago, windancer said:

 

I bought a swage that forms the rough shape of a leaf. Not the veining, but the end taper and general shape.

I have tried everything I can think of to make it work.

Anyone have one that works? How do you use it?

 

 

Can't help without at least one picture, and many would be better: inside, outside, spring, results you are getting.  

 

 

 

[jeremy k]

I have 2 of them that I acquired due to deaths of other smiths. They are the same size - for 1/2" round bar. I haven't used them for a long time due to the ease of shaping by hand and the versatility of size changing capability by hand forming the pre-shape. They do work and work fine if you want very uniform pre-shapes. You can get different results during the spreading of the leaf though. I believe they are one of those "Oh Cool" items that look good to a beginner but collect dust as one advances their own hand skills. If a skilled smith "does" require a high production scenario - One could make a swage easily enough to fit the size/shape they desire for a production run.

[Sanderson Iron]

At risk of offending whoever made your die, I will say that it is made more like a closed die and not like an open die, which is what a swage is supposed to be.   With a closed die, the image is made, the excess material spews out the sides as flashing, and then the flashing is knocked off in a second set of knock out dies.  A swage, of course, is supposed to work that flashing back into the part.   It needs to move the metal, causing it to flow--not contain it and trap it.

 All open die swages come down to the basic principles of the fuller: radii which push and pull the metal into and out of the die.  If it does not do that, the metal will be trapped, the flashing will not be reworked into the shape you're making and everything will stick and jamb.  If it works at all, it will take a lot more power than necessary.  

I have drawn some cross sections for you.  The first is a side view.  Here you can see how the openings of the die are round, like a fuller, to push and pull the metal out of and into the die.  (Your die has a flat opening.)  The larger opening is where most of the work will be done.  That radius will push the metal into the die as well as away from the die.  When this movement meets the movement from the far radius, the material between will upset to form the body of your part.  In the lower image I drew the finished part as well as the metal as it appears where it leaves the die. You can see how the swage does not need to contact very much, and the less it does, the more efficiently it will work.  (There is no reason to shape the metal leaving the die.)  A 25 pound hammer should be perfectly capable of swaging a 1" round ball (or bigger) if the die is made right. 

 

In the next image I have drawn the cross section of the die from the other side--looking at it from the end--with two cuts through the part, at A-a and B-b.  It is important to notice that the opening of each cross section is the same, which is the width of your stock's diameter.  Only the depth is different.  This allows the flashing to remain fairly thick and oval so it can be worked back into the part as the bar is rotated 90º.  If you try this with a die like yours, you'll get an awful lot of notching and even cold shuts where the flashing folds, because the die is not encouraging the metal to flow.

 

 

You can open up your die and make it into a swage.  You're half way there; it just wasn't finished.  Go in with a die grinder and broaden the opening to receive the stock, and give the ends a nice round radius, and it'll work.  

With that said, the design of your die is quite long, so it will not flow easily.  That is because the fullers at the end are so far apart and the taper is so long.  I've made a die very much like yours with good success, but it does take more force than the same diameter ball swage.  

Let me know if you have any questions.  Dies are fun, but they need to be made right, or their fun quickly turns to frustration.

Joel

 

 

 

 

[windancer]

Thanks to everyone for the info and opinions and  suggestions. My swage is identical to the pic in Jeremys second post.

Thinking maybe I was sliding the stock too far into the swage and not leaving enough room for the material to expand. Will play with it some more and see what happens.

Dave

 

 

[Sanderson Iron]

7 minutes ago, windancer said:

Thinking maybe I was sliding the stock too far into the swage and not leaving enough room for the material to expand. Will play with it some more and see what happens.

It will need to be shaped right first; otherwise, there is no reason for the metal to move where you want it to go.

 

[jeremy k]

There is no need to pre form the metal in order to use the swage, that is the reason for the swage is to pre form for the leaf. The only thing I may do is spin the end on a belt sander to make a very slight chamfer. Insert the hot end of the bar to the red line and turn the bar as you hammer the swage. The metal will get squeezed and move toward the pointed end of the swage and fill in the tapered area to make the point on the bar. Be sure to heat an inch or two on the bar side of the neck area of the swage so the neck forms easily.

[metalmangeler]

I use dies for making most of my leaves these are open dies on the power hammer. much different than what you have in the spring swedge, that said I think you are on the right track not inserting it to much, another thought you should be able to form slightly different leaves based on how far your blank is set into the dies. Do you have a veining die also? You can make one by flattening the correct size stock say 1/2 round then veining that at full width then drive that down into a hot block mild will work if it does not need to last too long and will be easier to make than one from better stock.

[Sanderson Iron]

I'm so inept with these computers things.  I just discovered that I can click on the picture and make it bigger.  Oh BOY!  Now I can see that die.  Of course, your second picture, Jeremy, is bigger already--probably put there special for goofs like me.  

It doesn't look as flat to me now that I can see it.  (!)  The opening still could be more rounded though (think fuller) and that will help a lot.

Just ignore me if you want to, rattling away up here.   Ah, well.    

[jeremy k]

This is what those pre shapes yield with just flattening to a 1/4" thick...2-1/8" long x 1" wide and some bold chiseling, after this then it can be cupped from the back and the tip slightly rolled over the horn/edge of anvil from the top and you have a leaf  

Also, a couple of pictures of the very first partially forged hand railing I made many many years ago, leaves where made like the pic below and with the above swage. Only because at that time - I did not know how to hand forge leaves.

[jeremy k]

Windancer - have you had luck using the swage?

[windancer]

Can't work the way I used to

Working on customer knives for another couple weeks, then will give it another try.

Thanks to all, again,

Dave