Forge feedback

[Melw45]

1 hour ago, EnglishDave said:

Yeah mine is essentially an open ended box, I can close off the rear opening with firebricks but can slide them apart when I start to forge that claymore one day

I have some old computer cases with the u shaped covers. My subconscious keeps saying two or three T burners and some kolwool would make a nice blade forge.

Rather like I see on eBay.

Mel 

[EnglishDave]

I am going to go ahead and strip out the nasty flaking cement/wool lining inside mine and replace with some new wool then ridigize and see how it behaves.

I think it is very easy to read post after post and over think this whole process. Yes, for sure there is a lot of great knowledge on here which can help one build the 'ideal' forge but for those of us for who this is a hobby with limited shop time (and funds) available I personally think the point is to get forging something and worry about the very fine details later.

[Mikey98118]

Oy goody; an ideal forge! Where do I sign up for some?

[EnglishDave]

10 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Oy goody; an ideal forge! Where do I sign up for some?

When I find out I'll let you know 

[Mikey98118]

I don't know whether or not the insulation has been seal coated; a heat reflecting coating will raise the temperature higher. I do know that the forge has a much larger than needed exhaust opening, which can be improved with a baffle wall; doing so will increase the forge temperature still higher. Since the forge is already at orange-yellow temperature either improvement will raise it to yellow heat, which is welding temperature.

[Frosty]

You got no argument from me Mike, we went different ways. I was making a point about making really small burners and the point of diminishing returns. The smaller they are the more precision is required to make them work properly. There's a point a person has to wonder which is more important, the tool or the work. 

I think I've hit pretty close to my goal with the T, it's really easy to make and works well enough to heat steel. That's it, all it's supposed to be, good enough on both scores. I tried to eliminate the necessity for flares simply because they're a added component that can be worked around. Well, a flared nozzle isn't the right thing but it works and is within the scope of the average small shop to produce. My own thinking had to yield to "good enough."

Did you ever talk to Robert Grauman? He came up with the side arm after visiting us on an Alaska vacation. We just went for an afternoon drive while Deb and his wife were doing their thing. I forgot to bring graph paper! So, I described the T and he rotated it 90* when he got home. He sent me an Email about how well it worked with pictures.

I deleted my first reply him telling how it was ALL WRONG! The pics were proof positive it was good enough. Boy did I dodge foot in mouth when reality punched me in the snout! Robert is or was a caster and he was melting fair sized batches (25lbs.) of iron with one 1 1/4" Side Arm burner. Larry Zoeler improved the Side Arm significantly, more goodness on the scene.

IS always trumps Should. We all get our heads stuck in "Should" now and then. It isn't easy to scrap what we think should work and stubborn pays off just often enough to keep us from giving up too soon too often. How's THAT for an over qualified statement?  

In short "Don't be a Should head!" I wish I remember who told me that he deserves the credit even if he didn't come up with it.

I love your burners Mike and don't have a bad word for Ron's. They work and very well, what CAN I say? Well, maybe I'll give an adjustable nozzle flare a try, it might be just the ticket. The pic you refer to is of a beautiful low velocity flame and I'm thoroughly convinced a low velocity flame is highly desirable but that pic is with a bell reducer as a flare. How is that adjustable without some serious thread removal? It's back to adjusting air fuel ratio by adjusting the jet's depth.

I recommend tuning burners where they're going to be used to simplify the process. The T is about simply good enough.

speaking as a tinkerer kind of guy who's mojo is slowly reawakening. I've got to get the gang together and have a shop rearranging party and dig my lathe out of the connex. Then dig a ditch  so I can run proper power to the shop. Once the lathe is up and running I can make a split die and spin burners that actually include a venturi transition from the intake plenum to the throat and a mixing tube of less than 1:12 or 12% full length taper. 

And there's the reason I haven't presented that as how to make a home built burner. It may be how they "Should be" but metal spinning isn't a skill you see very often and not one a person shouldn't try practicing without expert training. So it's a maybe someday. I don't really want to start selling burners, seriously don't and refuse to too often now.

I'm more than happy if the T burner is an entry level device and once folk discover better burners and their shop skills improve the Ts get tossed in favor of superior burners. That's a good thing, I'm in favor.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

The "T" as a good-enough burner is a solid concept, which has doubtless helped thousands of people all over the world. However, after seeing one put out such a remarkable flame, I will dare to invert one of your favorite concepts by asking if it isn't possible for the good-enough to occasionally get in the way of the best? there are probably just as many young glass artists who would be every bit as glad to use an upside down "T" burner as a bench torch as there are young blacksmiths who need a quick and easy burner to heat their forges.

Eighteen years ago I saw a magic flame coming out of one of my burners, and the rest is history; about that many days ago I saw a very different magic flame coming out of one of your burners. What made both of those flame magic is not to be found in their looks, but in what those looks mean; what unique purposes they can be put to. I hope you pursue your magic flame closely.

[Frosty]

You're certainly right Mike. Choosing good enough is okay but it should never be an excuse to settle. I'm not sure how I'm going to go about it but you showed me pics of a T using a bell reducer flare that was making a near ideal flame. I'd have to be an idiot not to recognize when I'm wrong.

Sometimes though we run across people with little or no shop skills and a T might be within their grasp. It sure as heck doesn't make it THE burner, just one that will get them working. A LOT of what I say is to simplify things to get them up and going. Once they're operational there is all the time in the world to perfect their skills and knowledge. 

I just wish there was a better off the shelf something than a plumbing T to make the things with. I'd jump on something as easy to adapt that was as or more efficient.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Melw45]

Put my forge to use today. I did use a fire brick to close off most of the opening.

It worked ok. I do think I want to go with the extra coatings. Just need to get the funds.

Thanks for looking.

Mel

[Mikey98118]

I think hard firebrick works okay as exterior baffle plates; and yes, the coating is worthwhile on them too.

[Melw45]

Well I used my forge today and it got good and hot. So hot I had to weld my tong blank back together.

Full propane tank made all the difference. I did try to forge weld. I did a write up in my started some tongs post.

Mel