haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I got this anvil in haste a few years back before I knew what I was looking for. As you can see from the pics it has seen a lot of use. My brother has access to some hefty machines and was good enough to perform the following tasks by my direction. He cut a roughly .25in web about .5in tall the length of the body. So now my forklift tine new top is about to be made one with the body. It has a lot of work ahead to get it to be sort of aesthetically pleasing, it won't look like it did the day if left NY, but it will sure take a beating as long as welding goes well. More pics to come as developments are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Full penetration weld over the entire new face; good! How do you plan to do the heat treat? With a good weld with proper preheat followed by a proper heat treat that anvil will be in good using condition and rescued from unusability. You might think of drilling and then drifting the hardy before welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I'm curious about the next step. Are you planning to cut a mating groove in the underside of the forklift tine, then weld the seam around the outside, or are you going to set the tine on top of that rib and weld/fill the 1/2" groove? Have you thought about heat treating after weld? Hope it all works out for you and you can bring that old girl back to life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I hate to state this but it looks from the pics like the amount of weld you are going to be applying is as much as if you had simply reformed the face with the correct rod. saving a lot of work and leaving you a forl lift tine for use elsewhere, and avoiding the problems of the tiype of weld you are now left to complete! Others here could have advised what rods to use. I shall be following with interest to view the outcome, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, Smoggy said: I hate to state this but it looks from the pics like the amount of weld you are going to be applying is as much as if you had simply reformed the face with the correct rod. saving a lot of work and leaving you a forl lift tine for use elsewhere, and avoiding the problems of the tiype of weld you are now left to complete! Others here could have advised what rods to use. I shall be following with interest to view the outcome, good luck. Yeah there is likely truth to that, thankfully my forklift tine and ductile iron body should stick together pretty good with 7018, apparently ductile iron welds just like mild steel. There is going to be a steep learning curve here I suspect. Thomas, Since the tine is 1.625 or so thick I was planning on welding slowly and trying to keep the face at or below 600deg as per a ratty IR thermometer. JME1149 I am planning on tack welding the tine to the body as it is, mounting it in an engine stand, and for each successive pas weld down in between the gap of the body and new top and build it out to the edge. It is either going to work great or end in disastor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I don't believe that is a ductile iron body; mild steel or wrought iron depending on age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 What is the difference between ductile and wrought iron? I'll lay a bead some place it won't hurt anything before I start trying to lay into this repair, it wouldn't be a great day to find out nothing sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 They are made differently, they have different compositions, they work differently.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 35 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: They are made differently, they have different compositions, they work differently.... Well I finally found something describing ductile iron as a maleable cast iron invented in 1943.... so I guess I have a wrought iron or mild steel body as you suggested. Eitherway I should be able to weld it. I am afraid there is a great deal I'm ignorant of, but in this case all I have to lose are an already ruined anvil and $50 chunk of fork lift tine. In the words of former defense secretary Rumsfeld, "there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 how much wrought iron have you welded before?.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 None, lots of mild steel though, and unless I've been misled, the internet mostly said wrought iron welds very similarly. If you have experience with it do you like to pre-heat it? I had gotten some hard face rods before committing to the new face and read they like the work piece about 500deg before welding, but I am going at this with some 7018 rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 The preheat is more for the face piece as the body should be low C. Having a moderate preheat on the body as well as the face piece will help prevent any contact quenching issues and increase penetration. (HAZ cracking is NOT something you want and as you have mentioned it's a lot of steel to abstract heat with.) The exact method I use is to place the anvil in the bed of my pickup and drive it over to a friend's shop. He teaches welding professionally, had all the neat equipment to hand (optical pyrometer to judge preheat for instance) and uses Robb Gunter's method. I insist on paying for his help even if it's tendered in brown or green glass bottles...(and cash for the consumables!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Watching this thread to see the outcome, not sure about not heat treating though. Speaking of heat treating, could you heat an anvil/top plate to non magnetic in a ground forge then dunk it in water to harden the top plate? I have a lake in the yard and a swivel lift/davit to move the hot anvil from forge to lake. Seems like it could work after welding it as you are. Either way, very ambitious project. Worst case it is a learning experience since you are not too invested money wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 "Seems like it would work" Are you familiar with the term "steam jacket" or why anvil manufacturers would use an elevated flume to pound through the steam jacket to get a proper quench on anvils they made. For a modern method: Charles McRaven used the services of a local volunteer fire department's high pressure hose to get both volume and pressure needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 I understand they require an awful lot of water to quench and anvil and harden it. My hope is to keep the top at or below the temp it would temper too much. If it gets too soft the I guess it will be time to make a bumper fixture and have a bonfire near some moving water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: "Seems like it would work" Are you familiar with the term "steam jacket" or why anvil manufacturers would use an elevated flume to pound through the steam jacket to get a proper quench on anvil they made. For a modern method: Charles McRaven used the services of a local volunteer fire department's high pressure hose to get both volume and pressure needed. Never done it, just thinking aloud. And it's "seems like it could work" not would work, bit of a difference. Are you saying it is not at all possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 the internet is full of bad information, anyone can put anything on the internet like the notorious you tube vids from 'the king of random' who tells people to use tin cans as crucibles for melting metals and when melting drinks cans not to worry about liquid in them as it will soon evaporate ( yes one drop can empty a crucible of molten metal into your face ). mild steel is different from wrought iron, they weld differently, they can be welded with the same rods but you need to practice first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 What works depends on a slew of factors you haven't provided. I'm too cranky to want to play 20000 questions today. As I recall the height and diameter of the quench flumes for at least one anvil manufacturer is known and you should be able to find it and calculate the speed and amount of water they thought worked best for their anvils and determine what is needed for your anvil(s) If I get a chance tonight I will look into the heat treat volume of the ASM handbook and see if they provide any suggestions. Suffice it to say however that after a certain size and a certain temperature you don't get a water quench as it's only steam that is in contact with the metal. (You may want to investigate the Leidenfrost Effect for another example of extreme temperature differentials that work in a similar manner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I was looking into it as I peaked my own curiosity and it seems it has been done. Watched a YouTube video of an anvil being heated to non magnetic, put onto a type of modified hitch behind a pick up truck and driven into the lake. I wouldn't advise it but here it is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b5noM1NnXeE TP, lifes too short to be cranky, I wasn't telling anyone to try this, just thinking aloud. I appreciate the more knowledgable pointing out the pros and cons. To me this seemed possible with what I have available if I was in a pinch. I only know the basics of heat treating which is why I asked. I'll research your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 People have also survived falling 10000 feet without a parachute; I would not advise it as a method of getting to the ground. In general I consider youtube to be a very slender reed as a research tool. I will commend to your attention the brief description on Quenching on page 533 in Anvils in America. (BTW Did part 1 give a starting comparison or a Rockwell hardness to use to compare before and after?) Seems funny that you would not have access to a fire department's high pressure hose but would have access to a forge on a lake with special built handling equipment. Steam jacket issues are a pretty well known thing. Even knifemakers can run into issues with them when hardening blades. Please remember that when you throw out a suggestion here you are making it to the world and people may not do their research properly. I hold it a right to be cranky when folks don't do their research *BEFORE* making suggestions and hope they end up making forges lined with sand and plaster of Paris---(which is also suggested on youtube and is a very bad way of doing it.)....I am sorry if a concussion and massive medical bills makes me crankier than usual as all y'all have no part in that. Perhaps it's time to gafiate. Page 16 Metals Handbook Vol 2 heat treating cleaning finishing, 8th edition:-----Stage A, called the "vapor blanket cooling stage", is characterized by the Leidenfrost phenomenon namely the formation of an unbroken vapor blanket that surrounds the test piece....This stage is one of slow cooling because the vapor envelope acts as an insulator and cooling occurs principally by radiation through the vapor film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Not sure what seems funny, it's not hard to build a forge in the ground next to my seawall and the special handling equipment is one of my boat lifts and chain. Guys in the video used a truck, lol, it's not rocket surgery. No hydrants here, just well water and pumping trucks for a volunteer FD. They have more important things to do when not fighting fires. I gave no advise, just asked about a possible method in my case with what is available. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Not every way is optimal but can still achieve acceptable results, if it's all you have you work with it, taking the proper safety precautions. Not saying this method is acceptable but we're not talking about a forge welded anvil at a foundry, it's a fork being welded to an anvil base in a manner not so common, more of a backyard shade tree method. It peaked my interest about the possibility of finishing the process in the same manner. The video posted may not be the right way to do it but it shows it can be done which answered my question, if it makes you feel better I'll ad a disclaimer: Don't try this at home, especially without a parachute. Hope that didn't hurt your head more. Haddockkl, apologies for the high jack. Cannot wait to see the welding results. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 7 hours ago, Gunslinger said: Haddockkl, apologies for the high jack. Cannot wait to see the welding results. Good luck! No worries, I have a lot to learn as well and getting discourse like this is of great value. I have come to some conclusions since this thread has kicked off and will be pre-heating the fork piece to 500-600 degrees to avoid the HAZ cracking as much as possible. Thankfully I don't have to hang an M1 Abrhams tank off this so even if there is some underlying cracking I am pretty sure there will still be enough tie in to the body that this should at least work as a solid surface to beat on. After welding I'll try bringing it to about 800 deg to stress releive it a bit, that is also on the high side for tempering so hopefully re heat treating the top won't be necessary, even if it is a little soft it will be harder than the iron body, I want it to be a little softer than my hammer and as long as the top is on there securely I can always have the top surface ground flat again then re-heat and harden it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 If you research the Leidenfrost effect you will see that the issue is not based so much on how much water you have access to; but needing to pound through the steam jacket; a swimming pool or lake michigan won't make a difference. A high pressure hose or a flume or a waterfall should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haddockkl Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: If you research the Leidenfrost effect you will see that the issue is not based so much on how much water you have access to; but needing to pound through the steam jacket; a swimming pool or lake michigan won't make a difference. A high pressure hose or a flume or a waterfall should work. How about a creek or moving body of water? Is there a calculation for the minimum water velocity required to push through the steam barrier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Probably but it will be a factor of the mass and the temperature. As anvil makers often used flumes around 30' high I don't know if you can get the speed needed from a stream. I like McRaven's method; but then I am friends with several folks in the local VFD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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