Giving 2 person lessons

[Joel OF]

I was wondering if anyone had any pointers on giving a lesson to two people at once?

I've been giving 1 to 1 lessons for a while now and they're easy enough and pupils go away over the moon, but I've had so many people ask if I do 2 person lessons that I think I've got to really as there's obviously money in it. The lessons I give are moreso "experience days" than educational lessons for aspiring smiths. I've been giving lessons using my coke forge and introducing pupils to the basics - tapering, scrolling, twisting, heat control and gearing the lessons so they go away with a good handful of things they've made in the day - nails, hooks, garden products, fire pokers etc

It's the logistics of teaching two at once that I'm curious about. E.g if they're making a hook with a scrolled finial and a twist in it, is it better for one person to make theirs start to finish, then the next person go, or does it work best if they alternate so one person does the taper then the next person does the taper, or does it work best if they're working on separate anvils and sharing the fire. I'm self taught so can't think back to what it was like at college/my apprenticeship as I didn't go down that route. I'm just trying to balance up what's going to be the practical and safe way for me to teach 2 people VS the best way to keep the momentum going so one person's not stood around getting bored waiting for the other person to finish.

I have 2 vises and 2 anvils so I'm not lacking in gear. I do also have a gas forge which so I guess one person could use the coke forge and one person use the gas, but that's going to get expensive in fuel. I definitely don't want to work solely off the gas forge, pupils like the coke forge.

Any pointers would be great, cheers.

[ThomasPowers]

Arrange the equipment that folks are going in different directions with their hot steel!

[Farmweld]

I quite regularly teach classes of four using one (large) coke forge, an anvil each, and one leg vice,  Forge etiquette is one of the first things they have to learn as there is a fair bit of ribbing goes on if one person pushes the others out of the fire and as Thomas said, set it up so that all go different ways with hot metal. 

You'll find that the students will have different work rates and one will complete a task quicker than the other so there shouldn't be too much competition for the vice or standing around being bored as they can go on to the next project.  By the end of the first hour I've had one student has made two "S" hooks to his satisfaction while the student next to him is still perfecting his first taper.  It can be interesting watching the interplay/competition that goes on between two mates who will stir each other about mistakes/flaws in work but then offer advice on how to fix at the same time.  I enjoy teaching groups up to this size, any more and you are running around too much trying to keep track of what's going on.

Andrew

[ThomasPowers]

"forge etiquette" nice term!   I have some basic rules that fall under that like: "hot steel has right away"  Since beginners are slow to get steel under the hammer anyway anyone coming out has right away over a piece going back in.  Don't take a piece out of the forge till you have anvil space available and the hammer to hand!  Do your tong adjustment with the piece still in the forge.  Hit it where it's hot, not where it's not.  If the ground wants to examine your workpiece it's terribly rude to put yourself in between it, let the ground examine it and pick it off of of the ground when it's stable. Warn someone when you will be taking a hot piece behind them, "Hot Steel" is the general call in my shops.  Let people know where you are going "vise" and "anvil" are calls used in my shops too.

[Frosty]

I've found it's easier to teach two than one but have a practical limit of four, my limit that is. Arranging the anvils so the students are swinging at 90* angles from each other so a hammer slipping out of a grip isn't aimed directly at the other student. I tell them why too as part of my explanation of the plane of rotation. The forge is in the focus of their work stations so they're facing it across their anvils. This makes their natural traffic pattern around the outside of the angle and puts them in plain sight of the other.

This arrangement keeps them out of each others way as much as possible and IN their lines of sight. It maximizes awareness while minimizing conflict.

This also allows me to keep a closer eye on both by standing outside the apex of the work angle, I can see down the center of their anvil, watch the fire and stay out of their planes of rotation. It lets e pass between their anvils if necessary to take charge of the forge if necessary to save a piece, demonstrate something, turn it off, etc.

While they're concentrating on their own projects they can see what the other is doing, make suggestions, remind the other of something I said, etc. Letting the students help teach REALLY accelerates the learning curve. I know I learn more teaching someone else than being the student myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[SReynolds]

I have four to a class. My class looks like a figure-eight car race and I don't,  nor do students have issues. It's as if everything simply falls into order,  all on its own. Do have some burns but it's rare. They like to pick up another student's nail from the floor. 

They don't have hammer control skills to cut and break-off with tongs or pliers. They cut it off and can't insert the nail into header cuz it be lying on floor.  Somebody is always too helpful to assist in picking it up for them !

I tell them early-on to check tongs and stock near forge for heat by placing BACK of hand near it. Reason is obviously obvious.  But they think it's a joke I'm telling. But in all honesty;  I do tell them to burn some hair on back of a finger is far better than buring several locations on palm of hammer hand.

I don't see what is so funny about that.

[Frosty]

It's amazing how helpful beginners in the shop are isn't it? Nor does it take them long to look at a nail.

Frosty The Lucky.

[j.w.s.]

Yeah, I do 3 students at a time in my knife making classes and it's a little easier than one on one sometimes. People tend to feed off the input of those around them and it's always cool to see encouragement happening among the group. Takes some of the pressure off and when it comes to one on one instructions the other two often watch and ask questions I don't immediately think of volunteering. 

- J

[Joel OF]

Thanks for the replies folks, that's helpful stuff cheers. I realize now that in the back of my mind I was concerned about pupils progressing at different rates but can now see that it might not be a bad thing & could lead to some good banter etc.

Do you change what you teach according to the numbers of pupils? With 1 to 1 lessons there a couple items I get folks to make that have round bar tapers in but with 2 person lessons I'm wondering if it'll be fairer/simpler/more enjoyable for pupils to stick to square bar tapering/projects? Just because some people struggle with round bar tapering.

[SReynolds]

The faster students like a break. The slower students like the faster ones out of the way. I use two students per forge/anvil.

The One-on-One student seemingly cannot tolerate swinging a hammer for 8-1/2 hours. Not something someone normally would do, even myself. Well, One-on-One student is bombarded with projects and no break watching the other guy. So it's a long day and they normally are done after 7 hours time. I have them literally leave after lunch. Blisters are hell.

Funny, cuz I have had students (two in fact) complain that they were not offered time to swing a hammer the entire 8-1/2 hours for the intro class. There is some theory involved and I demonstrate a number of tasks. Obviously, if you don't swing a hammer often for 8-1/2 hours, you ain't gonna do it. Period. Those two students have not returned for the other two classes in three years time which involves 8-1/2 hour hammer time. Offered that is. 

[ThomasPowers]

I have a standard "first project", an S hook made from 1/4" square and I start them with pieces long enough for them to hold so the first end they don't have to factor in tong use as well as hammer control.  If a student is having major issues I will ask if they would allow me to "clean up" their piece and I can smooth it out, true it up *and* progress it amazingly in one heat.  I also will often suggest they try a different hammer if I notice problems they are having that could be hammer related.  I also like to use the hammer the student has been using to correct any issues on their piece to show that it's not the tools fault...  

For very young or very old students I will often suggest that we both work on it together: I will hold it and hit it with my hammer and then they hit it with theirs---trading off, (though 80 to 90% of the work is done by my hammer...) Just did this with my 7 year old grandson on his first project.  It also allowed him to use both hands on the hammer.  With very young/old students I also have to limit their number as each one is given 100% focus by me; so two is about tops at one time.  For twisting the center section I will move the workpiece to the vise and place the twisting wrench on it and have them run around the vise holding onto 1 end of the wrench.  Usually a young/old student can't get it into the vise and the wrench snugged down before it gets cold on their own.  I also have some smaller sq stock I suggest people that want to do it all by their self but really need help use...(1/8" or 3/16").