New T-burner Brick Pile Tuning Help

[Adam R]

I just finished a new brick pile forge with a T-burner (3/4", 6" nipple, no flare, just flush with the inside surface of the ceiling brick). My burner lights, and seems to burn a nice blue flame. When it was lit yesterday in higher winds (20-25) the flame was coming back up the nipple and out the side if the T. I didn't think that was good so I used my 1/4 turn valve and shut it off to relight it. I am working outside, as it seems to be smart with a new setup. I am not sure if the wind is my only problem. I packed things up last night and thought I would try again today with less wind. I am getting the same flame shooting out the sides of the T. I set two bricks up next to the burner to try to protect against the wind, but that didn't seem to make a difference. Trying different pressure settings didn't change the flame  issue.

The forge is similar to the brick pile forge on the Zoeller site with 3000 degree hard FB for the floor, and 2600 degree IFB for the rest. The chamber is just over a full brick inside, so I know that I am not undersized with the 3/4" burner. I tried moving the burner up 3/4" so it is not inside the forge but it didn't make a difference. I also tried closing off the front opening some (the back has a brick laying down to close it off), that didn't do much either. I have looked at many of the post on this sort of topic, and haven't been able to find any information. The search function hasn't yielded many results, but that may be user error. I am using a 0-20psi regulator from Menard's that is intended to run a turkey fryer from the packaging. I am using a .030 MIG tip (what was on hand) that I have cleaned out with a set of tip cleaners to slightly oversized. If this is the source of the problem as determined by comments I can get an .035, but this seems unlikely to me.

When the burner wasn't acting up, it did bring a slightly undersized RR spike to a nice orange in a couple minutes. I also had some 3/8" square that warmed up rather fast, if a little focused. I imagine that wider higher heats are achieved as the forge warms up, which hasn't really happened yet. 

Just for fun I am including a picture of my vertical RR track anvil and stand. This is a small chunk that I have made for the kids to use as they grow. I may add a top that will have a hardy hole that can slide over the outside of the short chunk. If the stand looks like overkill, it is because I have the notion that a small anvil could sit there someday. For now I am testing the horn on it to see if I like the side it's on before I cut into the bigger piece that will be more to my height. By the way the kids are far from the forge as I am getting things figured out.

This probably seems a little rambling, but I know that you folks like the details. Thanks to Frosty, Charles Stevens, Zoeller forge and others for sharing your knowledge/ideas.

[Frosty]

A couple issues. T burners don't like breezes, I use a pretty hokey looking wind screen when I'm working outside.

Am I right in reading you to say your forge chamber is the size of ONE brick? If so it's amazing you can get it lit at all. A well tuned 3/4" burner will bring 300-350 cu/in to welding temperature. A brick is a hair over 91 cu/in.

Make a 1/2" T burner and double the volume of your forge and it'll work a treat. OR increase the volume of this one to about 300 cu/in or a bit less.

Next generation move to a forge that doesn't use fire brick. Hard fire brick is a serious heat sink that burns a lot more fuel heating and keeping hot. Soft or IFB is very susceptible to thermal cycling and gas forges do so sharply. I'm lucky to get a soft brick to last more than maybe 3 firings.

1" 8lb. Kaowool or equivalent in 2 layers with a contact liner of either hard refractory or better still a 3,000f high alumina IR reflective kiln wash mixed like plaster and laid in about 1/2" thick. High alumina kiln shelf for the floor, likewise kiln washed to help protect it from fluxes and mechanical abrasion.

You'll be AMAZED how much better it works.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Adam R]

Well that helps tremendously. I can make a half inch burner on my lunch break tomorrow, and give it another try with a wind screen. My thought with using the brick pile was to start with something small to figure out what I need. I have seen a lot of people start way too big, then not be able to get up to temp. With the way I designed my current frame, I can get the chamber to 6.5" x 4.5" x 9". That would give me 263.25 cu according to a volume calculator. I should at least be able to get some use out of it this forge with my current supplies. I will save the 3/4" burner for the next one.

[Frosty]

Nothing wrong with putting the 3/4" in a smaller volume, within reason of course, you can turn it down a LOT easier than turning it up beyond max.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Adam R]

I've had some life happen, but am finally getting back to tuning the forge. I made the 1/2" burner and have eliminated the back burn issue. I have trimmed the MIG tip which seemed to improve the performance. I think I may need to trim a bit more. My flame seems to be fluttering a bit, not the steady roar that Frosty has described. I also have installed the forge in an old grill (after a good washing to eliminate the grease fire potential). The cover seemed to work fairly well as a wind shield with some decent wind. Will see how it work in the future.

I am seeing the limitations of the hard fire brick acting as a heat sink. I am thinking this may be the reason metal is taking a while to get armed up. I am new to gassers. Is it normal to have a spot directly under a vertical burner that is cold on the metal? I was trying to make a horse head out of 3/16x1" mild steel and it seemed as though tstock directly below the burner was darker than either side.

A side note, the bushes seen in the pictures have been removed (some of the mentioned life) to get rid of the fire danger/clean up the yard.

[Frosty]

The reason there's a cold spot directly in line with the burner flame is the burner is too close. too close is also a good reason for a burner to sputter, pop woof, etc. The heat is reflecting heating the burner nozzel AND back pressure is slowing it down so the air fuel can detonate inside the nozzle making it sputter. Move it back an inch or so to start with and adjust back till it becomes a hot spot. What color is the Dragon's breath and how far is it extending out the openings?

Just wait till you break down and build a forge with kiln washed Kaowool, you'll be smiling big time.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

Frosty is certainly the expert on his T-burners, and I'm glad that he is helping you tune yours.  Needless to say you should never have flames exiting the open sides of the T, if you do the air is moving in the wrong direction overall and backpressure is the likely culprit.  I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but in addition to burner outlet placement, door opening size can be a contributor to backpressure problems as well.  I've had systems that needed their doors full open while they initially warmed up and then would accept more closed openings once the forge got up to temperature. Weird dynamics.

As far as a windscreen goes, my vision of a simple one for these burners is just a coffee tin with a small opening cut in the bottom for the gas fitting to slide through.  Assemble it with the open side towards the forge, covering the tee fitting, and the bottom braced against the brass fitting that holds the MIG tip. Provided the annular area left is over two times that of the two openings in the tee that should not restrict airflow, but should block the wind.  Of course if you have gates over the tee openings to adjust your air/gas ratio this will be in the way, but could be installed after the overall system is tuned.  Will have to try one on the 1/2" Frosty T that I cobbled together for my mini paint can forge (2" frax blanket and refractory cement insulation), though I forge inside most of the time.

[Adam R]

Tried out the burner depth adjustment (1 1\2" ultimately). It worked great! The cold spot is gone, and I was able to turn down the gas pressure once I got up to temp. I'm still only getting to the high orange range. Not sure if I should really expect to get more from the above forge. The consistent temp is nice for having several pieces in the forge at a time without needing to worry about melting.

Not sure exactly the color of the dragon's breath since I have been working outside during the evening. I do know that the arm hair gets singed within about 6-8" straight out and 12" or so above. The flame seems to be blue/green to orange.

Opening the front and back really helped as well to get things warmed up. Then I closed the back, and slowly closed the front like suggested. The grill lid and a strategically placed fire brick seems to have conquered most of my wind issues, but I will definitely keep the coffee can idea in mind for later.

While I am still playing with this forge, the materials for a ceramic insulation lined forge are on the list for the not so distant future. I have been discussing this forge, and experiences with my brother who was thinking about a brick pile. He is going to skip the pile and jump right to the next level. Maybe someone else will do the same.

[Frosty]

Blue green with a touch of orange is a good color it means the burner is running slightly rich so you won't see scaling in the forge. I had to smile when you said you could turn the reg down when the forge got to temperature then said it wasn't getting as hot as you thought it should. The first thing to try to solve that situation is don't turn it down till it's hot enough, maybe even turn it up some.

Play around with how you close the openings, arrangement of the closures, how closed, etc. you'll get a feel for how it runs in a little while, don't worry. While you're for sure like an insulated forge better play with this one for a while, there's no deadline to get your next forge built. Unless you WANT to have a number of obsolete forges under benches in back corners, etc. like many of us do.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikey98118]

Great discussion guys; a lot of good stuff here! I think these kinds of details are the best kind of information to be found on groups like this.

latticino,

I like the idea of using a can as a sort of wind shroud. When it blows in Seattle, frequent changes in wind direction makes the standard wind break more frustrating then helpful. The only place Ive ever been that was worse for frequent wind changes was Dutch Harbor.

[Adam R]

So I have used the forge fairly successfully a few times. Have held the steel while the older kids forged a couple flat tapers ( that's harder than it looks dad). I haven't fired it up the for a few weeks, but I did this afternoon and it won't come up to temp. I am not getting a good roar out of it like before. Am using a new tank, so that shouldn't be an issue. I am not seeing the blue green flame like before, and the DB is orange/shooting out 8-12 inches. Adjustment of the burner depth doesn't seem to make a difference, nor does opening/closing the openings. There are some cracks in the bricks, but none that weren't there last time when I forged and heat treated a hatchet from an old hammer and other tool steels. Wind is not an issue today. Just for fun I was trying to do a demo for some out of town relatives.  Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.