oxy propane set up

[canada goose]

What is required for the proper set up for oxy propane ? Can it be used for cutting? 

[ThomasPowers]

I'd talk "proper" over with your local welding supply company.  As for cutting; yes that may be the top use of oxy-propane  with localized heating to be the second.

[Charlotte]

Oxy/propane for cutting/heating/brazing.   

5 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

I'd talk "proper" over with your local welding supply company.  As for cutting; yes that may be the top use of oxy-propane  with localized heating to be the second.

Welding supply companies really are the place to go for a proper setup.  Pressures, gauges, drill sizes are quite different.  Personally, I find is a little slower to start with propane but I think I get cleaner cuts.  My company used to fill liquid oxygen dewars  for people engaged in scrap cutting.  They used propane tanks and oxygen to do their cutting.

[canada goose]

I'd like a little more knowledge before I walk in as It is not clear to me that those guys who sit there pushing keys are that expert.

[ThomasPowers]

Well you should try to use what other people in your area who get supplies from your local welding shop use:  When getting using tools "rare and unusual" is NOT a selling point!

(how many of us fell for getting a "different" car in our youth only to find out that parts were hard to find and *expensive*!)

[Charlotte]

Most of pieces are the same as acetylene torches.   Look for someone that is dealing HARRIS brand.  They are a company that has specialized in Propane/Oxygen torches and equipment.  I use Victor only because that is what my company sold when I was working there.

   The differences in Victor were at that time : Duel fuel hoses with end connections the same.  The orifice and mixing equipment for cutting/ and brazing, and heating.  The handle bodies were the same.  Essentially all I had to do to switch between propane / blazer/ MAPP/ and acetylene, once the hose was changed, was to swap the flame end connections.

,  

[Frosty]

Beware the propane conversion tips they're far from efficient, typically burning 2x the oxy for the work. You see them in wrecking yards because they can afford to buy dewers of liquid oxy and fill their own propane bottles.

Harris multi fuel propane rigs are designed from the regulators to the tip to burn propane. These are the same oxy propane torches invented by and sold under the name of All States. They've always been made by Harris but under the All states patents. the patents have lapsed and Lyle's kids aren't very interested in selling torch sets, parts or servicing them.

The only thing the oxy propane rig doesn't do better than oxy acet is weld steel. IN every other operation I've used mine for it FAR out performs oxy acet. They advertise 2% the cost in consumables. When I bought mine you could buy a new victor kit for about $100 and I spent $690 but it'd paid for itself more than 2x over before I emptied the first 20lb. tank of propane and by then I'd only filled my q bottle of oxy 3x. Even now I can fill my oxy for $30 and a bottle of propane is $15. No kidding oxy acet uses 12X the fuel and 24x the oxy.

I don't know why these things aren't everywhere you don't have to gas weld steel. I think it's momentum, the "it's how we've always done it" thing.

It's too bad All States no longer has distributors, there's nothing like the demonstration to make the case.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charlotte]

To follow up on Frosty's comments.  I totally agree with his opinion.   I neglected to mention that Harris products is now owned by Lincoln Electric.  So if you find a Lincoln dealer you will find Harris.  

Btw 4403240 is the Harris number of their Pipeliner  Outfit. Good for Propane and Propylene. 

As I said Victor will work but Harris is better designed from the start,  

[Buzzkill]

I don't know if you have Praxair in Canada, but my local outlet says they can get the Harris outfits.  They carry Victor in the store though.

[Frosty]

4 hours ago, Charlotte said:

To follow up on Frosty's comments.  I totally agree with his opinion.   I neglected to mention that Harris products is now owned by Lincoln Electric.  So if you find a Lincoln dealer you will find Harris.  

Btw 4403240 is the Harris number of their Pipeliner  Outfit. Good for Propane and Propylene. 

As I said Victor will work but Harris is better designed from the start,  

Harris actually put together a kit!?! how long ago did they do that? When I was talking Bill Kingsley he could only give me a list of parts numbers. I suggested Harris put kits together but he was WAY too busy to let me know if they did. Very cool!

Thanks for the part number for the outfit Charlotte, I'm actually writing that down on PAPER! I'm also going to go lean on the counter at the local Aire LIquid about them NOT carrying Harris torches. They ARE a Lincoln distributor! They carry the competition though.

I had to buy replacement cutting tips online, to be fair the online price was about 15% of the All States price and shipping was priority mail so didn't get the S&H of All States either.

It kills me, I LOVE my All States torch but since Lyle died the torches are more trouble to the kids than they're worth.

Oh I got off on the torch again didn't I? Oops.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charlotte]

If you go to their website and dig down they list both acetylene and Propane propylene  (alternate fuel gases) for the pipeliner.    I just checked that this afternoon before I posted.

I was going off an old piece of advertisement when I started to post and then checked the current number just to be sure. 

 

[jmccustomknives]

Harris makes a scrap torch that's second to none.  I prefer Victors small home kits, but that's mostly due to the ease of getting tips.  There's not as many Harris torches in our area so no one keeps that many parts.  Keep in mind, you can't use acetylene hoses (R grade) on propane which requires T grade.  Also there are other LP gasses that can be used and may require different tips that don't interchange.

These two torch varieties can use both fuel gasses, but there are some out there that can't.  Always be mindful and ask questions. 

As Frosty said, you'll use more oxygen with propane but the fuel is much cheaper than acetylene so it's a wash at worst.

[Charlotte]

With the right sized tip and clean decent metal it is possible for the skilled to turn off the fuel gas and continue a cut with just oxygen.   That is really the secret of oxy propane cutting. 

The oxygen is the cutting agent not the fuel.  

However,  that is kind of a stunt that old timers  pull just to remind noobs that there is still a lot to learn,  Can I do it?  Only when the phase of the moon and the set of wind is in my favor. Still I like a clean cut that I get with propane as fuel,

[Frosty]

You can do it with oxy acet too but you have to turn the oxy psi up near the limit. I've pulled it off but can't say I CAN do it. Oxy prop is easier the oxy psi is already much higher. Like you say, it's a stunt.

Cutting nuts off bolts without damaging the threads on the bolt isn't a stunt but it wows the new guys just the same. It's also a good way to show the old timers you can work the tool. It doesn't work so well with oxy prop. I'd just finished showing an old guy I could operate a torch and he said, "do this." and torched the bolt out of a nut and screwed it onto a new bolt. I never got the hang of that one.

Gotta love a hot wrench in competent hands.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Frosty]

5 minutes ago, Scrambler82 said:

Can the Oxy/Propane be used for Gas Welding too ?

 

I haven't had much luck welding steel with mine though Lyle used to swear it worked better than acet. Lyle invented the torch system(?) All States sold so of course it was better. It welds cast iron, copper alloys, SS, al, etc. nicely and brazes like nothing else. If you're going to try it on copper alloys be prepared for how fast they conduct heat, tig it if you have the choice.

Remember I can only speak for the All States rigs and I hear the ones Harris sells are the same thing. What I can say about the old school propane conversion torches is they belong in scrap yards IF you can afford BIG gobs of oxy. What makes them economical is the price difference between acet and prop.

The All States / Harris rigs are designed from the regulators out to burn propane, there is really no comparison to a conversion torch, A whole different kettle of chili.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Klorinth]

How reasonable is it to think that as a total newbie I can learn to use one of these units? I can certainly see the benefits just for cutting, even if I didn't use it for anything else.

i picked up a cheap little Oxy-MAPP kit to try the idea out. It can only cut up to about 3/16" but it was an interesting experience to use. I have another set of bottles to play with before I decide if I want to put out money for a proper setup.

Due to my work I already know the Praxair guys here.

I prefer what I have been reading about the propane units. I keep 3 small tanks around all the time so it would be easy to dedicate one to a cutting torch.

Charlotte, is there any difference between using their Cutter PAC vs the Pipeliner? Looking at the website I don't understand the difference.

[Klorinth]

Sorry, answered my own question about the difference between the two kits... One has everything and the other does not.

[Bowland]

Oxy propane cuts cleaner

It won't cut as thick as steel section as accetelyle but plenty thick enough 

It don't get hot enough to gas weld 

You can use the same fuel bottle on a gas forge 

It's far cheaper here in the UK

It's easier to get in a hurry( again in the uk)

It isn't as explosive at low fuel air mix as acetylene though it sits low though so carrys it own special dangers

I use the self same cutting torch switching from cutting to heating nozzles .

Insurance companies here prefer it and favour it in premiums 

 

[Frosty]

Bowland: You're evidently not using an oxy propane torch designed to use propane. Conversion torches are notorious for not performing as well. What you say is common testimony from conversion torch users.

My All States rig will pierce 5" of steel with a 000 tip, I've never tried piercing that much steel with acet. I've never pierced more than 2" with an acet rig and 0 tip and that was an unpleasant experience. It didn't do much of a job cutting it either.

The prop torch gets plenty hot enough to weld steel but the flame velocity is so high it blows the melt out of the puddle so it WILL weld just not worth spit.

Bear in mind I can only speak for my All States torch set.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frosty]

Did you actually get them filled or exchange them? I don't know of a supplier here that will fill your bottles and I bought mine (Q, 80cf ?) many years ago. It sure saves on demurage and I never need to worry about one passing inspection or being certified. I believe having currently certified and safe bottles is why suppliers went to exchanging them rather than filling.

One of the best things about oxy prop if you travel is you almost never need to take full propane tanks. It had to be a really small village up here that couldn't fill a propane tank or had one to lend or sell so you never had to air freight them. The airlines needed current certs and a snug cap but you could take a W size oxy tank on a passenger flight and air taxi to a bush village if you needed to.

Propane is under $3.00/gl. here right now and one 20lb. tank of propane is more torch work than 12 full size (300?) acet tanks. I don't know what a 300cf acet. bottle costs to fill but it's gotta be a bite.

Still, my propane rig doesn't weld worth spit. However I'll be spending some time in the shop today and need to re set a rivet so I'll have the small brazig tip on it and I've got my curious up now. Guess I'll give it a try even though it's right next to my little wire feed.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Bowland]

On 14/03/2016 at 7:08 AM, Frosty said:

Bowland: You're evidently not using an oxy propane torch designed to use propane. Conversion torches are notorious for not performing as well. What you say is common testimony from conversion torch users.

My All States rig will pierce 5" of steel with a 000 tip, I've never tried piercing that much steel with acet. I've never pierced more than 2" with an acet rig and 0 tip and that was an unpleasant experience. It didn't do much of a job cutting it either.

The prop torch gets plenty hot enough to weld steel but the flame velocity is so high it blows the melt out of the puddle so it WILL weld just not worth spit.

Bear in mind I can only speak for my All States torch set.

Frosty The Lucky.

Nothing of the sort. Accetelyle is hotter that's why you can't weld with oxy propane and why you can cut thicker with accetelyle - it simply  gives more heat of course there is hotter still but how many blacksmiths need more 

 

 

 

[jumbojak]

6 hours ago, Bowland said:

Accetelyle is hotter that's why you can't weld with oxy propane and why you can cut thicker with accetelyle - it simply  gives more heat of course there is hotter still but how many blacksmiths need more 

Is this true? I mean, an oxy-propane torch can certainly reach a high enough temperature to melt steel. I read somewhere - and I really wish I could remember where - that the reason oxy-propane welds so poorly is because it doesn't produce a blanket of CO2 to shield the weld while acetelyne does. That's an honest question and I hope someone here can point me in the right direction to find out. There seems to be lots of argument on the subject with no definitive answer.

Then there's the issue of highest temperature versus total BTU output. Yes, acetelyne produces a higher absolute temperature, but everything I've read indicates that propane in fact produces more BTUs, albeit in a different part of the flame than acetelyne. I've seen two ways of cutting with a torch; one involves holding the flame over the line until it melts and falls away in chunks leaving a very poor finish, the other involves heating along the line and then blasting the cut with oxy so the metal falls away leaving a very clean cut. It would seem that propane would be the ticket in regards to cutting, given its higher total BTU output.

I don't know what to believe at this point. I've only ever seen and rarely used acetelyne. 

[David Edgar]

I put my OXY ACET equipment into storage and invested in an  OXY Propane torch, hose,regulator andspark arresters for cutting and heating. I now want to do some brazing and hard silver soldering, but cannot get a flame controllable enough.

I have tried googling for specific nozzles for brazing with oxy propane without success.What am I missing? Should I just be using OXY ACET welding torch and nozzles with my Oxy propane hoses,regs etc to get a smaller flame? I DO NOT want to return to ACET. .I have read this thread twice and the only reference to a brazing tip was by Frosty.

Help please.

[Charlotte]

Acetylene produces a hotter flame because of the energy stored in the triple bond between the two carbon atoms.  Unit cost of propane is substantially less than acetylene pre BTU.

I use the same tips for silver soldering and brazing that I use with acetylene  when doing small, pinpoint, jobs.   The metallic working end units of acetylene equipment can be used with propane but they don't work as well.

If I had invested in propane equipment I would use the same brand tips provided by the manufacturer.  For larger jobs I have seen hard silver solder joints in stainless steel done with propane air, Turbo torch, units.

All things in fuel rigs depend on exactly what you are doing to determine what the best is

[Bowland]

14 hours ago, jumbojak said:

Is this true? I mean, an oxy-propane torch can certainly reach a high enough temperature to melt steel. I read somewhere - and I really wish I could remember where - that the reason oxy-propane welds so poorly is because it doesn't produce a blanket of CO2 to shield the weld while acetelyne does. That's an honest question and I hope someone here can point me in the right direction to find out. There seems to be lots of argument on the subject with no definitive answer.

Then there's the issue of highest temperature versus total BTU output. Yes, acetelyne produces a higher absolute temperature, but everything I've read indicates that propane in fact produces more BTUs, albeit in a different part of the flame than acetelyne. I've seen two ways of cutting with a torch; one involves holding the flame over the line until it melts and falls away in chunks leaving a very poor finish, the other involves heating along the line and then blasting the cut with oxy so the metal falls away leaving a very clean cut. It would seem that propane would be the ticket in regards to cutting, given its higher total BTU output.

I don't know what to believe at this point. I've only ever seen and rarely used acetelyne. 

Well all I can say is I am apprentice trained as a welder fabricator starting in 1985. It what I learnt at college. I am sure there are ways of getting better results through gear used on either and also worse results from using poor gear. But as the two fuel gasses go propane will always lag behind on max temp 

For cutting there is but one way

Get the flame correct place it on the spot your going to start cutting. Wait just so you see the starts of a surface flow and press the oxy lever simultaneously tilting the torch to a push angle ( you can avoid this angle as we did with automated oxy accetelyle burning machines  ( prior to today's lazercutters worked direct CNC) - but it's hard and by hand all but the best pro burners are going to mess up! Pro burners? Yes we had those apprentice trained on the shipyards,  all they could do was use a torch but by crikey they were good! 

Just looked it up oxy propane 2828 c oxy accetelyle 3160c