dps9999 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hey guys i am wondering if any one can help...i have been trying to PROPERLY heat treat 1080...i have read all the facts i understand the science behind it. i have some one (also on the computer so he cant come physically show me) helping me. i made 2 knifes first one too hard second too soft then i just cut off a couple pieces of steel to heat treat to avoid spending all the time making a blade to break. wich i will do again as a test once i get it right. the problem is i cant get the grain size small enough i ruled out the tempering process by just hardening and breaking at that point without the temper. the grain is small but what i was told is to break a old nicholson usa file and that is what i want to shoot for grain size. to me by eye the file's grain size is XXXX near to non exisistent the stuff i am doing is small but not small enough to match the file. the only thing i can think is i am quenching to early or too late is there any way to know wich is wich or is it just flying blind till you achieve it one way or another......any lil tips, tricks or advice on getting the quench right would really be appreciated.. Watch your language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 To avoid all the questions, tell us your entire process start to finish and what temps you quench at and with what quench medium. Also, how are you gauging temperature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 seems simple so far but there is a problem somewhere ......i start by heating the canola oil to 110-120 degrees during this it gives the forge time to heat up and stabilize. so then put the knife in and watch as soon as it changes a lil bit of color i pull it out and test with magnet if it is not yet non magnetic put it back in for 10-15 seconds. check again i do this until i get it non magnetic then put it back in for a few seconds then pull out and quench in canola oil right away. after the first 2 i thought maybe un even heating could be a problem so i added a pipe in the forge then the steel goes in the pipe....first knife i did i imdeatly tempered for 1 hour at 400 degrees...tested brass rod test then went to bend it broke with out bending at all so that has got to be too hard... second way to soft bent to 90 degrees with out breaking....after that i just started cutting pieces of steel and heat treating that with out going through the steps of makeing it into a knife first...i cut 2 lil notches on each side of the piece of steel to give it a breaking point as i was told...i have done 2 of them now with only hardening (no temper) and then breaking to see the grain both of them the grain was small (deffinitly smaller than the first knife i broke that seemed to hard) but they were not as small as the old nicholson usa files that i broke to get something to compare to and to try and emulate the file has very very small grain its xxxx near imposible to see by eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Grain refinement is more difficult to achieve without a programmable oven where the temperature can be held at a relatively stable temperature for extended periods of time. (I am guessing that this is what Nicholson uses for their heat treatment of their files). If you are trying to accomplish it by 'eye' you may have reached a plateau that is difficult to cross. Using a baffle to help control the temperature of the steel is a good start. Flatten your test pieces out to @ 0.1", do your grain refinement, harden, then temper at increasingly higher temperatures. When you get a test piece that meets your requirements for hardness and flex (without taking a set or breaking) use that treatment for your next knife. You might explore differential tempering on some test pieces as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Which books have you read? Not Wiki, not Youtube, etc. BOOKS. By the sound of it you're guessing and hoping for good results. It doesn't work that way outside the Xbox or fantasy novels. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 the only real book i have is is the 50$ knife shop wich does not have much on heat treating but does touch on it....i have read ALOT online i try not to depend on youtube i have read alot of stickies on many forums and old post's that have gone up i have had some help from a couple knife makers online to.....i think i am getting closer the last piece of steel that i was using as test pieces bent to about 45 deg and then snaped i think the grain size is getting better it is smaller but i think it could get a lil smaller tho i am going to make another knife shaped object and try again i am deffinitly going in the right direction its been getting better hope that continues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Here's a tip that just might help you succeed in more than just this. Forget social media for anything but entertainment. Anybody with a connection can claim and say anything and they don't have to back a word. Even considering some world class bladesmiths have offered cogent advice WITH cites on Iforge you haven't bothered to read even here. Going back to my advice about social media's unreliability for research, a person has to know something of the subject to be able to sift the good info from the babel of kids who just HAVE to say something even though they don't have anything to say. Now, go to the library and check out a bladesmithing book or two. ILL one if necessary. (Inter Library Loan) There is a book list in the bladesmithing section here to help you find out what ARE good books and what are just . . . less good. The $50.00 Knife Shop is a decent book but if you don't have any knowledge or skills you'll end up just shotgunning away with guesses and not know why things don't work. I'm not trying to discourage you, I much prefer to see people succeed but you can't just slough off real research and ask a poor questions and expect good answers. Seriously, you don't know enough to be able to ask good questions so how do you expect to understand the answers? EVEN if someone here could figure out what you're asking. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 dps9999, I am not a knifemaker so you can take this with a grain of salt, but if your second knife passed the brass rod test and didn't break during the 90deg bend test what in that makes you believe the knife is too soft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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