WIP Knife - Practicing Concepts

[LibrariaNPC]

I'm still trying to see what I can do with smaller bits of metal, as my first class used 8" of steel and I haven't really made anything smaller (except for a boot knife, but that's another story). It also helps that a friend of mine was asking about specific designs, and I wanted to see how little material I needed to pull it off. While the original idea didn't work (didn't leave enough material for the handle), I made the best of it anyway.

It's not quite done yet. I ran a 26 grit wheel on it after I forged it, and used a (slightly worn) 36 grit wheel to get it to this point. Going to sand it by hand and probably leave it a bit more rugged than not.

Starting material was 1084 measuring 4x1x0.187. 

 

The only problem I'm seeing with it is the very miniscule bend at the tip; I'm guessing it happened during cooling or tempering, because it was straightened out of the quench.

I'm also trying to decide the best way to clean up the handle. I'm giving it a vinegar soak right now to see how that pans out.

 

Any input would be appreciated!

[Charles R. Stevens]

I fined, as a knife user you need a bit more to hold on to to control a knife. With the exeption of carpenters marking and paper knives. Material conservation is the reason for tanges inserted in to wood branches...

if you don't center the tang, it looks odd handled tho.

[ThomasPowers]

Centered tangs are a bit of a cultural thing. There is a raft of "Mediterranean"  blades that have the top justified tang,  However I agree with Charles that there isn't a good grip on that one and the sharp edges of the twist look uncomfortable to the hand too.  You might octagonalize it before twisting.  For self hilted blades I tend to make a long tang and then bend it around to give more "width" to the grip.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks for the input!

The original goal was to taper, lengthen, twist, and then bend into a different shape (either a narrow U or a nice rounded ring), but I realized after the fact that it was too short, so I went with this instead after seeing the partner knife JWS made with a seax. Didn't see a point in throwing out material, so went with something that could work.

I'll keep the octagonal note in mind for the next one (I started another with 3 inches of handle and one inch of blade but ran out of fuel while tapering). Surprisingly, it is relatively comfortable, but as you mentioned, I'm not sure how well it will feel when I'm cutting things due to the thin handle.

Any other input on shape, look, or tips to help me get better at this?

[ThomasPowers]

Shape is dependent on what it's supposed to be used for and what you like. Which you haven't shared with us. It would not make a great skinner; but might make a decent SCA eating knife, Not make a good general camp knife; but would be ok for a marking knife for the woodshop. Etc.

if you google mediterranean knives and look at the images you might get some ideas on how that style can be done in different ways.

Edited October 1, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[LibrariaNPC]

I actually didn't have a set idea in mind; one part I was going with the descriptions my friend gave me (which sounds much like an eating knife and/or a "woman's knife", now that I'm thinking about it), while the other part was just listening to the metal and seeing how things could be shaped.

[cliffrat]

Librarian, When you say "I ran a 26 grit wheel on it after I forged it, and used a (slightly worn) 36 grit wheel to get it to this point." What exactly are you referring to? Is this a wheel on an angle grinder?

[LibrariaNPC]

Librarian, When you say "I ran a 26 grit wheel on it after I forged it, and used a (slightly worn) 36 grit wheel to get it to this point." What exactly are you referring to? Is this a wheel on an angle grinder?

Yeah, wheels on an angle grinder. Sorry for not being clearer (and for the delay; had an out-of-state interview that took away my free time).

[cliffrat]

Yeah, wheels on an angle grinder. Sorry for not being clearer (and for the delay; had an out-of-state interview that took away my free time).

I am assuming you are using a solid abrasive wheel, so forgive me if that's incorrect. They make flap wheels in a variety of grits up to about 400. I think that 's the finest grit I've seen anyway. You might be able to achieve a smoother finish by using those. You could even make a two-piece stop/guide from two pieces of steel that you could align where you want plunge cuts.

As for suggestions an how to make this type of knife differently, check out these posts on another forum:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2088-another-rat-tail-hunter/

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2074-blacksmith-style-hunter/

I hope your interview went well.

 

[LibrariaNPC]

I am assuming you are using a solid abrasive wheel, so forgive me if that's incorrect. They make flap wheels in a variety of grits up to about 400. I think that 's the finest grit I've seen anyway. You might be able to achieve a smoother finish by using those. You could even make a two-piece stop/guide from two pieces of steel that you could align where you want plunge cuts.

As for suggestions an how to make this type of knife differently, check out these posts on another forum:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2088-another-rat-tail-hunter/

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2074-blacksmith-style-hunter/

I hope your interview went well.

 

Thanks for those links! I'll check them out and see what else I can learn. I've been tampering/sketching simple designs lately thanks to conversations with friends (mostly SCA and Renn Faire fans), so any insight on how to make blades without extra handle material would be brilliant.

Right now my highest flap wheel is 120 grit (from a bulk pack from Harbor Freight). They get pretty pricey after a while on bigger/multiple projects, as local stores outside of Harbor Freight and Fazzio's only sell up to 80 grit and charge about $8 each. 

I have been considering getting a backer and sanding discs (the ones that are basically sandpaper), but I'm not sure if that would work out well. Any input would be appreciated!

Another side thought: how would you suggest cleaning a handle like this, especially one with a twist? I'm thinking a wire wheel should be able to handle it (a tool I currently lack due to space/setup), or maybe a dremel (probably with the small wire wheel; currently on the "to purchase" docket).

And thank you for the well-wishes on the interview. I think they both went well (one on Friday, one yesterday), but now it's just waiting to see who is desperate, crazy, or awesome enough to hire me on. Hoping I hear soon, as it means I could start setting up an indoor, slightly more permanent shop by Thanksgiving if I'm lucky.

[cliffrat]

I find a Dremel tool (or any rotary tool) is an incredibly useful device. I highly recommend getting one at some point. The wire wheel is great for cleaning scale off the blade and handle. You can get one for the angle grinder. Clamp that blade in a bench or post vice and wire that thing clean. I sometimes soak my blades in a weak solution of PH Down to help remove and soften heavy scale buildup. It's a dry acid that is used for swimming pools and you can get it at most home improvement stores or hardware stores. Mix about a cup or two to a five gallon bucket of water. A lot of that scale will wipe off with a paper shop towel. The texture left behind can be pretty cool or pretty ugly, depending on your perspective.

The firm backer and sanding disc combo for the angle grinder might work, I don't have any experience using them for such a small surface area. A filing jig and a center scribe would be good tools to have, and you can make the both of them from scrap. I did, and they both work fine.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks again for all of the input!

Scrap metal isn't something I have much of as I tend to just buy what I need when I need it; anything not used from a large bar sits in the living room, which sometimes puts me at odds with my wife (dangerous territory, there). 

When I do my filing/sanding/grinding, I usually lock a board in my vice and then clamp the blade down to the board. The grinder is used freehand (getting slowly better there), filing is done as needed (I don't do much of it with knives), and I usually use another board with sandpaper when I'm finishing (looking at getting sanding blocks soon as the dimensions get tricky).

I did pick up a wire wheel attachment for my angle grinder, but the last two times I used it resulted in a broken handle (cable damascus) and nearly launching a blade when things get caught. Locking it into a vice worries me due to the pressure on the plastic, so that's out as I paid extra for battery powered due to my setup, it's not a consumable item.

The dremel came up a few times this week, and I'll probably be investing in one once I see what happens with these interviews. I don't know how useful it will be with my larger projects (like the costume Ashandarei I'm working on), but I can see a number of uses elsewhere.

Thank you for the input on the PH Down.I normally use vinegar and have recently stared to use a home made ferric chloride for cleaning/etching (didn't get that far with this one since I still haven't done any polishing yet), so knowing another alternative is brilliant. Thank you!

[T.J.watts]

Just a few thoughts, using the angle grinder on blades be very careful. I have seen so many people that cant grind without putting dips in everything, that could be where the curve in the tip came from. With practice you can definitely use an angle grinder I'm not arguing that. If you do decide to use the backing pad with paper discs be very careful around sharp edges, if the disc catches a corner it will fly apart. Two ideas for cleaning the handle, if you use the angle grinder be careful not to apply to much pressure and try one of the finer wheels instead of the braded wheels, or heat the handle to a light red and use a hand brush. With most of my blades I will use a grinder for heavy stock removal but other that that its belt sander, file, and a steel strap with sand paper wrapped around it. Draw filing can remove a lot of material and help keep the bevels flat. Your blade looks like it might make a good thrower.

[LibrariaNPC]

Thanks for the input, TJ!

My first knifesmithing class involved using an angle grinder, and with some practice/experience, I know the concerns you bring up. I've been pretty lucky so far, thankfully, and I think I'm getting the hang of not hollow grinding. 

I was actually trying to do some basic sanding on another project (trying to get the scratches out), but I haven't had much luck (the project tends to "rock" due to the unstable workplaces). 

The red heat and a wire brush sound like nice ideas, but I'm not sure if I can easy get that with my gas forge and not risk ruining the heat treat of the blade, and I lack an oxyacetylene torch to centralize that heat. I will keep the finer vs braided wheel idea in mind if I can get a wire wheel set up to use.

For this project (and past projects), I forge, use an angle grinder (I lack a belt grinder at the moment) for fixing the profile and most hammer marks, do some cursory draw filing and sanding for fine tuning the work/bevels, heat treat, and then clean up, normally with an angle grinder, a vinegar/acid bath, and if needed, sandpaper with a board (should probably go with a smaller bit of metal). Haven't had much luck with sanding by hand (can't seem to get rid of all the scratches on my other project), but that could be my setup (table is high and not attached to anything). Any input on that would be appreciated!

I didn't think about this blade being a thrower, honestly. Almost makes me want to change the blade shape a bit to be more of a drop point for that purpose. . .

[T.J.watts]

Usually when I'm filling I get the heavy work with the coarse then move to a mill file to remove the heavy scratches. After that its my .25 strap with 220 grit paper and WD-40. I've noticed that if I sand down the length, then at an angle and back down the length it removes the scratches much quicker and makes them easier to see. If your table is to shaky you could just both it down with spacers and angle brackets to sturdy and level it out. That is if your some where you can bolt or screw it down with out the wife getting upset.

[LibrariaNPC]

No luck on securing the table, sadly. I cannot put any holes in the wall (landlord's rule), and my work is done outside. I've tried clamping it to my Ikea desk and throw on some background music, but I'm probably sanding the table almost as much as the project at this point (that, and the desk isn't secured to anything either).

One of those reasons why I'm job hunting and hoping for a place I can set up indoors.

So why do you use WD-40? Just curious, as I thought liquid would just cause the dust to clump together.

[T.J.watts]

Actually the WD-40 keeps the dust from sticking to the paper and helps with the finish. Kind of like the compounds used on grinding wheels to stop mineral build up. I'm sure you've seen videos or read about using polishing stones, as you polish the stone makes a mud with the water and helps with polishing.

[Dogsoldat]

Just a thought but can you put a shelf low to the floor on your bench and add a sand bag or three.  Might be surprised how a little weight may anchor things.

[LibrariaNPC]

Just a thought but can you put a shelf low to the floor on your bench and add a sand bag or three.  Might be surprised how a little weight may anchor things.

It's a possibility, but it's also the added time of moving the extra items around. I already lose almost an hour organizing what's inside the apartment to get things outside, getting things outside, and then setting up properly. Finaggling sandbags somewhere (and hoping they don't get torn into if left outside) will just add to that.