andys MQ Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) so i have been thinking about a easy ( for me at least) head design for a kinyon style, or guided helm (rusty style).i was just thinking the modified kinyon head from gearhearts and love it but i dont have access to machining equipment.i just thought what if i took 2 hydraulic cylinders of the same diameter, cut the top 3-6 inces off and welded them together the matching cylinder rod could pass up and down through them both . driven by either a air ram as the kinyons are or maybe as the rusty are. I doubt if the rusty would have the power for that sort of set up, but for a cheap option for a guide with no machining.it would require welding it and keep it straight but im sure i can do that, and you could fill or put an amount of oil in there to lube it up as it goes.anyway that's the idea. what do you think? to much resistance? would the standard ram seals ect hold up to that sort of work? im sure people have used hydraulic rams as air rams on hammers so i guess they would. Edited September 27, 2015 by andys MQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Can you noob cad it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 Don't understand the concept?will see what I can do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 So this will make it as clear as mud I'm sure but maybe give a slightly better idea of what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 That's a lot of work to do for something that can be done much simpler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 It's just cutting the top of a ram and welding it to another. What could be simpler with no lathe or big boring equipment? I'm all for easy options, willing to share Jeremy? I guess what I'm really interested in is what would be the service life on the ram seals ect if used like this? Would it even last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 A tube, and bushings. Some rams have wear bushing in them, some don't. You can buy proper bushings from various suppliers. Check with local high schools, or colleges to see if they can do the machining for you, or take a machine shop class if they still offer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I feel its much simpler to use a - say 4" heavy wall tube for the ram(per say) and fab up a tube that is the guide for that - card stock for clearance spacer during welding of outer guide tube and you got a nice fit. If you can weld a couple cylinders/rods together after being cut apart and still keep them true without machining then get after it. Show the pics when done please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Sorry my friend I can't weld the cylinders AND rods. But I believe I could weld just the two cut off cylinder tops and keep it within the limits. The rod would be just one of the rods from the two cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Do you have these cylinders already ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 no it was just a thought I had the other day and thought I would throw it out there to see if anyone knew if the cylinders would withstand to strike rate. Mum sure I can find a couple easy enough though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 They do make double ended cylinders to "skip the middleman" of what it appears you are doing by welding cylinders end to end. They are not uncommon...just harder to find. I most commonly see them in lumber mills. Just last week I saw at least a dozen appropriate ones at the auction of a limber mill equipment supplier.Would be far better than the hassles of welding....assuming I am understanding what you propose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi Andys MQ,Chrome shaft is very cheap in standard sizes, it should be possible to use the cylinder and caps from two rams and run a shaft through the middle and do away with the piston. there is only a seal and a rod wiper in the cap that the shaft exits from. the trick will be finding two cheap and crusty old bolt together rams to wreck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi Andys MQ,Chrome shaft is very cheap in standard sizes, it should be possible to use the cylinder and caps from two rams and run a shaft through the middle and do away with the piston. there is only a seal and a rod wiper in the cap that the shaft exits from. the trick will be finding two cheap and crusty old bolt together rams to wreck.That sounds like an excellent idea. Since new shaft would be used, the rams that get salvaged could be of any length as long as the shaft diameter matched. Those should be a dime a dozen in any farm town with equipment take-offs.I don't think the old seals/guides would stand up to the number of cycles and potential side thrusts but at junk-store prices, it seems like it'd be worth a shot (with a back up plan if it fails) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 if the ram is shorter than the stroke half a cup of oil in the cylinder will keep the seals lubed, if it is a long shaft two rams might be needed. The most common ram I see is 8 inch stroke and inch shaft. I can tell you inch shaft flexes a lot and is quite easy to bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 They do make double ended cylinders to "skip the middleman" of what it appears you are doing by welding cylinders end to end. They are not uncommon...just harder to find. I most commonly see them in lumber mills. Just last week I saw at least a dozen appropriate ones at the auction of a limber mill equipment supplier.Would be far better than the hassles of welding....assuming I am understanding what you propose. sorry bud I'm not so much thinking of an actual working ram just using the caps as a guide for either a new rod as yahoo mentioned or reusing one of the ones from th original Rams I cut up. Hi Andys MQ,Chrome shaft is very cheap in standard sizes, it should be possible to use the cylinder and caps from two rams and run a shaft through the middle and do away with the piston. there is only a seal and a rod wiper in the cap that the shaft exits from. the trick will be finding two cheap and crusty old bolt together rams to wreck.Now we are on the same page, yes exactly. I was thinking about a 2" shaft diameter and just a standard ram cut and welded to each other and the frame rather than a bolt together.however the bolt up idea might be even easyer. I was thinking of just using the shaft from one of the Rams I salvage. I was thinking the ideal ram would be 2-3"x 2'. Should get a good bit of stroke out of that. All depends on what can be found I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Cylinder shafting does not weld well as it is a high carbon very hardenable material. The rod bearings from cylinders are not designed for much side loading and will wear quickly. The piston seals will make much drag. If bound and determined to use something like this, look at Parker Hannifen brand "Jewel glands" these are a cartridge bearing used in hydraulic cylinders and are a kit you buy. Take the seal out of the bearings but use the rod scraper to keep the scale from eating the bronze bearing up. Us a long rod salvaged and use the threaded ends to attach to the ram and the spring.Personally I have a spring hammer running with a tire clutch and a ram guide modeled off the Tire hammer. You only need to be able to weld plain steel, and be able to use a side grinder and a drill press. Thread a few holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 Cylinder shafting does not weld well as it is a high carbon very hardenable material. The rod bearings from cylinders are not designed for much side loading and will wear quickly. The piston seals will make much drag. If bound and determined to use something like this, look at Parker Hannifen brand "Jewel glands" these are a cartridge bearing used in hydraulic cylinders and are a kit you buy. Take the seal out of the bearings but use the rod scraper to keep the scale from eating the bronze bearing up. Us a long rod salvaged and use the threaded ends to attach to the ram and the spring.Personally I have a spring hammer running with a tire clutch and a ram guide modeled off the Tire hammer. You only need to be able to weld plain steel, and be able to use a side grinder and a drill press. Thread a few holes.you would need to machine the contact/slide faces of the hammer though wouldn't you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 If using the rod as the hammer face no. The hard chrome will not turn from Chrome 5 to chrome 6(Hexavalent chrome) at any temp seen in forging. The place where Hex chrome is evolved from plain chrome is at very high temps like in an arc weld and especially in a TIG weld as the temp is high enough and the severe ultra-violet energy as excites the chrome atoms to jump up to valance +6As a safety guy in factorys, where extensive welding is uses I have studied this a bit:) Hex chrome is a real issue when welding stainless steel as the chrome contents in SS vari from about 13% to 18%. Most alloy steels have less than 1%. The chrome in plating is an issue if welding. The chrome plating baths themselves are a source if working around them. Hex chrome is an issue, but then all weld smoke is an issue. Coal smoke is an issue. If you are breathing, anywhere in the world, you are breathing some magnesium silicate, a mineral in the earth. Magnesium silicate is also called asbestos.If there is anything in the air you breath, beyond the normal gasses that make up our atmosphere then you are breathing in stuff that is an issue.Sooo.... avoid breathing smoke. avoid breathing dust. Remember that dust you can see in the air is usually not the issue, it is the particulate that is too small to be seen that is the most harmful. If you are healthy enough and do not have facial hair a respirator can be used to filter out most of this stuff. A N-100 filter will remove the particulate. Smoke is by the way comprised mostly of particulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahlia's Daddy Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I would agree with ptree about the seals not holding up to the movement a powerhammer makes. And they are not cheap to replace. If you have easy access to hydraulic cylinders a press may be the way to go.If you don't have them yet, get the Ray Clontz/Clay Spencer tire hammer plans. Best 30 bucks you'll ever spend. Unless the price went up. And then it'll still be money well spent. I got contact info from the saltfork craftsmen website.While there are parts that are machined on the tire hammer, it really is a minimal amount and easy to do (hence affordable to have someone do it if you can't). If you are comfortable with your welding skills it should be a feasible project for you to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 Is true. Just thinking / hoping I could upgrade to a kidyon style in the future. When I have a compressors that could run one. So Trying to think outside the box a bit.keep thinking I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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