Anyone out there making Shibuishi? I have made my first round of cast ingots and am trying to form this stuff. It's very difficult to move under the hammer or rolling mill.

Forbidden! ARGHHHHH!! I'm the leaning the new material so I can search.

Lets see if I can edit in a reply. Edit worked, then it AUTO MERGED my second reply! ARGHHH. If my reply makes less sense than I usually do I had help. 

What percentage alloy are you using? I haven't found anything about rolling or Forging out your own bar, most artists are buying the stock. Silver copper alloys should work similar to brass alloys.

Will continue looking.

Have you worked brass? Like most copper alloys you can move them a LONG way on the first pass, pretty far on the second and okay on the third but forth is risky. It work hardens abruptly unlike pure copper or silver. Practice on brazing rod if you're unfamiliar with brass.

I'll look for more.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited July 24, 201511 yr by Frosty

Hi Cliff,

Here's a link to a small tutorial I made on how I create and roll my shibuichi:
Part 1 - http://sterlingsculptures.com/wp/?p=1266
Part 2 - http://sterlingsculptures.com/wp/?p=1277

Hope it's helpful!

Tom

I'm using a fairly "rich" alloy (about 50-50) and my ingot starts out at around 3/8 inch thick. I'm using basically the same technique that tsterling shows in his tutorial, except my ingot mold is a piece of stainless tool wrap folded into a box and pushed into a cut-off piece of steel tubing. I have ingot molds like he has, but I needed a thicker piece of material for the knife guard, so I improvised a mold.

question for ts: your tutorial says you anneal and pickle often. How often? It seems I am needing to anneal after about 3 passes through the mill. I'm considering putting the drawing dies on the 25# little giant.........

Edited July 24, 201511 yr by cliffrat
spelling

3 passes sounds about right between annealing. Don't waste time quenching, just bring it to dull red and when it goes to black start working it, you'll get a couple more passes. If you put it under a 25 LG working it hot is almost a must. Before you try though, sweep the floor and maybe lay butcher paper around the hammer to catch the pieces. You'll get 3 blows before it starts to work harden and it will harden abruptly.

You can hit it as hard as you want 3 times then it's good luck.

Frosty The Lucky.

Frostyitis! Forbidden again!

And again.

This is infuriating! I have tried to post something to this thread 7 times and keep getting Frostyitis.

Edited July 27, 201510 yr by cliffrat
Forbidden a secong time

I think I will now bombard the tech support with requests to fix this situation.....

Good, I've been sending them my "Forbidden" posts, requesting an explanation. I'm just getting the boiler plate response that all issues have been addressed and any problem is our fault. Soooo, I've been just loading the inbox.

I haven't been able to get through to Tech support at all, marketing is my only contact so far. If you get someone in Tech support please share their contact info with me so I can send complaints to the folk who are ignoring our problems.

Frosty The Lucky.

Patrick Hastings makes and sells Japanese alloys. He recently moved to Washington state and maybe a month before he is up and running.

http://taganearts.com

Ric

Patrick Hastings makes and sells Japanese alloys. He recently moved to Washington state and maybe a month before he is up and running.

http://taganearts.com

Ric

We have a saying in our Black smith's Association (AABA, AZ): Why buy something for $10 when you can make it for $20?

We have a saying in our Black smith's Association (AABA, AZ): Why buy something for $10 when you can make it for $20?

Where's the incentive in only doubling the price?

Frosty The Lucky.

Um........

Where's the incentive in only doubling the price?

Frosty The Lucky.

We have a saying in our Black smith's Association (AABA, AZ): Why buy something for $10 when you can make it for $20?

I didn't say what I was going to sell it for.

I misspoke I meant what's the incentive in only doubling the cost. My bad.

There really aren't many things I make I couldn't buy for considerably less it just isn't any fun.

Frosty The Lucky.

I have made it myself as well and agree it doesn't like to move as well as copper or silver. I have a theory about that. I suspect that it gets tougher to move the more oxygen you allowed to get into the alloy.  I have used low oxy copper and it moves very nicely whereas cheaper roofing copper is tougher to move and cracks sooner.

Since none of us are using continuos casting equipment  we are likely allowing oxygen in. I plan on trying the traditional water casting next time I do it to see if that helps.

I make and sell shibu plate for knife and sword fittings.......  James

Variation of Shibuichi^[3]

name (JA)	Ag ： Cu, +Au[4]	note　mentioned colors are after patination
Shibuichi	25 ： 75	Dark grey, has a trace of gold
Shiro-Shibuichi　 (Kin-IchibuSashi)	60 ： 40, +1	Shiro is White in JA lighter grey, harder, lower melting temp
Ue-Shibuichi　 (Kin-IchibuSashi)	40 ： 60, +1	Ue is Upper in JA Grey, harder
Nami-Shibuichi　Uchi-Sanbu　 (Kin-IchibuSashi)	30 ： 70, +1	Nami is Regular in JA lighter than Shibuichi
Nami-Shibuichi　Soto-Sanbu　 (Kin-IchibuSashi)	23 ： 77, +1	Darker than Shibuichi

Edited August 16, 201510 yr by Bubbasan
info

After being forbidden so many times.......

What is up with that? Try to make a serious comment and forbidden. Make a useless one, and it goes right through.

Now it's merged two useless comments and it will probably merge this one with the last two.

yep. Sure did. Let's try for four?

Maybe if I post short comments only.

Too weird

I tried the water casting and didn't notice any difference.

What are you covering the melt with when you heat it?  Are you sure your heat source reducing?

 

Teeny, please say that again in plain English. I'm not covering the metal with anything, except heat. The original melt of two metals is done in a reduced atmosphere in the forge. There is almost no oxidation occurring during the first alloy stage, subsequent melts for casting are done in the crucible on the bench top.

Hey Bubba, I really like the looks of your Shibu. Thanks for the recipes too.

Of the three pieces shown, what recipe is each one?

copper loves oxygen so much it will suck it out of anything it can, if there is any free oxygen in the atmosphere it will grab it and make the final product brittle. it is advisable to float something on top while melting as a barrier. Borax, or glass or... all kinds of stuff can work. 

then after pouring as it cools it needs to be protected as well.commercially it is all done in a blanket of gas but a Hot water cooling bath is almost as good. 

charcoal is used on top of the melt

Edited August 25, 201510 yr by Chris john

I'm a little late to the party here, but I've found the challenge with shibuichi is the amount of oxygen it drinks from the air in the melting process. I've found the cheapest upgrade to a shibuishi setup is a graphite crucible, it helps loads with creating a reducing atmosphere. The next step up, if you've got the kiln, is kiln melting it instead of torch melting it, but I've done fine with a torch and graphite crucible.

cheers.

Thanks PVal. I recently purchased a graphite crucible and will try that. The trouble I have with the Kiln melt is getting it out of the Paragon and pouring into the mold. I cast this stuff into knife fittings and jewelry. The trouble I have with putting charcoal on top of the melt is not getting charcoal into the casting mold......

 

Typically you would clean the dross off before pouring. The charcoal would go with it so you had a clean pour.

 

To separate the slag be it charcoal glass borax or . . .slag. You can use a crucible or ladle with a lip that has a dam. If you've seen a mustache cup, keeps coffee off your mustache or your mustache out of your coffee.

Anyway, the copper flows under a low gate that separates the charcoal by scraping it off the surface. You can NOT pour all the melt or the dross will follow in out. That may be okay though if your mold is full the cap material will float and not contaminate the casting.

Frosty The Lucky.

By Jove I love this place. Get ideas every time. The only problem is there's always something new to buy.........it wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that the shop is already way too small. And the wife just bought a TIG welder.