Build a Gas Forge and Info on Ribbon Burners

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

I have posted many times regarding my Build a Gas Forge tutorial.  I have now edited, updated and improved it and have attached it for your information.

I have also recently built a forge using a Ribbon Burner based on the article written by my good friend, John Emmerling.  I am very impressed with this new forge and the Ribbon Burner.  I have attached John's instructions for building the burner.

There is some more information on my web site.

Let me know if you have questions or if I can help you.

Build_a_Gas_Forge.pdf

Ribbon Forge Burner.pdf

[BlackKnight0739]

This is awesome! Thanks for sharing!

[HIGHSIDER]

Brilliant! This is exactly what I have planned. Thanks a bunch Wayne.

[Frosty]

Thanks Wayne. Do you  know of anyone building a ribbon burner using a NA system rather than a blower?

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

I have run mine without a fan, works OK for a while. Sometimes burns back up into the ribbon burner.

They work better with a puffer.

 

Merry Almost,

Neil

[Dodge]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing!

 

Scott

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Jesus Hernandez told me that he runs his ribbon burner without a blower.  John says in his instructions that you must have a blower that develops pressure.  I have not tried running one without  blower.  If you try it without a blower make sure that if using propane that the flow of the gas is all down hill to the burner, if using natural gas the gas must flow up hill to the burner. My propane must run up hill as I have it designed so must make sure and turn the burner on before turning on the gas or the gas runs down into the blower.

 

If anyone tries building a ribbon burner forge without using  blower please post pictures and let us know how it works.  Be sure and discuss any pitfalls that you run into.

 

Thank you and let me know if I can help you.

[Frosty]

Thanks Wayne. The way a NA burner works is as an induction device and those can be very powerful. The State uses a vacuum truck to clean drains, manholes, etc. and the vacuum is developed by a "jet ejector" type inducer. the tank on the truck is about 8,000gl. and the vac hose is 14" dia and about 25' long on a boom. The inducer is a little larger than a VHS cassette tape and produces enough power to evacuate the main tank. Heck the thing will crush 55gl. drum, just lay the vac hose on the drum after the bungs have been opened and in about 15-20 seconds the drum is crushed flat like a stomped beer can.

 

I've thought about making a NA ribbon burner just never got around to it. I think the basic rule of thumb I've found effective to keep the mix moving well would apply. That rule of thumb is: The output MUST increase in cross sectional area or friction will cause back pressure, enough back pressure will inhibit the induction.

 

Applying that to a ribbon burner would go something like this. a 1" T jet burner has a cross sectional area of 0.7854 sq/in at the tube end. For every corner it turns it needs to increase about 25% in area. Speculating from there on, add another 25% for the burner plenum and another 25% for the crayon burner nozzles. (enough openings their total area exceeds the volume of the plenum by 25%)

 

That is of course just rough figuring and a departure point I was going to begin with. I haven't experimented and don't know enough math to even understand Bernoulli's laws let alone use them for anything practical. Well, okay I understand Bernoulli's laws enough to see what's happening and take advantage if I tinker long enough. Ron Reil and I messed with NA burners for probably almost a year but went with different basic designs for induction based burners.

 

Heck, the "burner flare" came about from a misunderstanding we had back then. I'd been searching the web looking at commercial inducers after a coffee shop friend dumped a stack of drawings on me. The one thing that really stood out to me was how the burner tubes were all tapered at just under 12 *. A little reading about Prof Bernoulli and his laws showed me the fastest a person can increase or decrease a tube's diameter without causing BAd turbulence is 1:12. I mentioned this to Ron and pointed him to the link. The next thing I new he was just putting a flare on the end NOT tapering the whole length of the tube!

 

I was in the middle of writing him an E-mail telling him he was wrong, Wrong, WRONG when it dawned on me the pics he'd sent showed the burner to be performing just fine. Okay, a flare works but tapering the entire output works WAY better. The commercial burners on farrier forges are tapered and turn corners, work fine with the doors almost completely closed, etc. The commercial burners are tapered full length.

 

According to Prof Bernoulli: As the fluid, (gases and fluids behave the same way except for compressability) moves into a greater volume it has to either slow down or cause a pressure drop from the source. This is the reason the jet of propane creates a vacuum, it expands in the tube and the pressure drops. Also, the inside of the tube is a curved surface, a fluid moving across a curved surface causes a pressure drop at the surface. So, a tapered tube draws far more intake air so a larger gas jet at a lower pressure will put more air fuel mix in the forge chamber and more air fuel makes more heat.

 

How's that for brief? I could've gotten carried away, I haven't thought much about this stuff in a while and it's good Getting the old brain juices flowing now and then.

 

Frosty The Lucky.