Charles R. Stevens Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 No it hasn't i just placed 180 of the buggers in the ground. The law changed a few decades ago that clasified it as a "pestiside" and requires a pestiside aplicators license to apply, either in the feild or in the post treatment plant. If you use ground rated PT i would recomend leting it dry, as it is pumped full of water after it was kiln dried to meet "code" second i would rap the botom of the post from 6" above ground down to atleast 2 1/2 foot below with ruberised asphalt and plastic or equvilan ice barer. As despite a 20 year rating they usualy dont last 15. A lot of "new tech" (mostly anchient tech) has recieved code approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawnJockey Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Another option is to purchase old well pipe for the in the ground pieces and frame the structure like a pole barn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Creosote is banned in the state I live in. Not available to purchase anywhere, and illegal to use in ground contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Then what are they using on the waterfront? PT dosnt work for marine aplications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Creosote timbers are not used in NJ waterfront. You will have to talk to dock builders to find out what is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thank you all for the comments and guidance. I would have to answer a few of the comments made to help ensure the site specific details are in. I'm in south central KY, between Lake Cumberland and the Green River Reservoir. 60+ acres of woods on steep, almost cliffs in places, walls and draws. The photos I included are of the site where the old was, long before we bought it. I live here with my parents, as I help with the property. My 20+ year career in IT is just about over with off-shoring and high school kids being preferred to experience. I spent much of today calling around in search of utility pole sources. I also spoke with local saw mills asking about cast offs. A contact has access to a few hundred rail ties, since 4 years ago they relaid the track across his property and last year pulled up the track. I'm thinking they could make a good ground contact that the pallet panels can sit on/connect to. Even with the hill side so near (7 yards), the site stays wet enough to grow plants prolifically. The ties can also be stacked and staked with rebar to help level where the walls will be and possibly be used as retention for gravel. While clearing trees and brush, yesterday, I took time to figure out how to use the chain saw to square cut log portions for contact and lagging. I'm not the best at it, but I got the idea worked out. I also realized that I am going to need some cross bracing. Most likely for where the doors will slide. The saplings I cut and trimmed are stacked to dry for that use. I also spoke with a nearby property owner who told me I was welcome to take as much gravel as I wanted from the creek bed across his land. I just need to leave him a high place to cross to his fields. Shoveling gravel out by hand will be back breaking, but worth it, I think. My mental image of it is a pole barn, slanted roof and closed in by pallets for walls. I'm not trying to cheap out on this. I'm trying to use what I have available, or can get on my budget, to get the shop up as quickly as possible. Again, thank you for the advise. I hope to read much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 If the ties are sound go for it, basicaly your building a foundation to build on. What is your frost depth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Charles, I honestly don't know, but I will find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thats interesting, NJ. Just serves as a reminder that things can be very different just a few (1,500?) miles away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Kind of need to know that, dictated foundation or peir depth. You can use gravel filled foundation trenches or set posts below the frost line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Still planning to put posts, at least 2 feet into the ground. Not sure why, but gut feeling i will want it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 When pole barns are built here in NJ, they put the posts 4' in the ground, on top of concrete poured into the drilled holes. They are also putting a 1/2" stainless pin through the post near the bottom, sticking out about 3" on each side. Prevents uplifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 What is your frost depth? Quick look in one of my architecture books shows frost depths from 24" to 33" for Kentucky, depending on his location. I'd guess the deeper frost depths would be in areas with higher elevations in the eastern part of the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 NJ, glad to see they arnt waisting cement and traping moisture against the posts, nice trick with the pins. 24" gravel filed trenches might be a bit exesive, lol but cerainly less expensive than 2 foot of concrete. I wander what the foundations look like bellow grade? Might the crumbly tops be removed and the below grade (protected from fire) portian be salvaged? Certainly not ideal for a plaster ready building but may be more than stable for a slab sided shop. The ideal set up would be stone walls 16" high filled with gravel for the floor, but that is a heck of a lot of work, even for a crazy man like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Charles, the existing foundation pieces and the middle line supports all crumbling, even below surface. Checked with local building inspector (does not need to see anything I'm building becuse I'm so farout of town). He stated wherewe are the frost line is 18 to 20 inches the WORST of winters, where I am. The Green River Reservoir helps keep the groupd from getting too frozen. Also, last night, I checked available depth. Drilled a hole 2 feet deep, using auger on tractor. Was able to tdrive a t-fence post another 27 inches before hitting stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 For smaller pole barn type buildings here, code also allows for 240 pounds of sacrete concrete mix to be poured into the holes, leveled, and the post set on top of that. The ground moisture will harden up the concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 My shop is built nearly entirely from salvage. BUT, I spent the required money for good ground contact rated treated poles. In this area, Just north of the Ohiop river, I used 6 x6 poles at the corners and used 4 x 6 for the others. Has been up for 29 years. My blacksmith shop is a lean to on the original wood working shop. Has 4" OD boiler tube from rafters on 4' centers. Has 2 x 4 nailers screwed to the 0.085" twall boiler tubes. Has a 17' free span and did not sag with 36" of wet snow. Insulated with roof foam panels removed when an industrial roof was redone. BUT don't put polular in the dirt, you will be able to watch it rot in real time:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Placing concreat in the bottom of the hole provides suport for the post resisting the lode placed on it a 12" whole with 4-6" of cement in the bottom suports more than a 6" timber in the ground, placing cement in the hole around the post isnt all that good unless you are paying labor and it is certainly cheaper than tamping the soil back in the hole to 90 percent (some times code calles for things that arnt all that necisary) some special need may lead you to needing cement arounf the post, but if that is the case, I would use precast peirs or sonotubes and cast in place. So with 20" frost line you need to get below that, there are several ways, cement is relitively expesive and has a prety big carbon footprint, i you are using a treated post a large flat rock in the bottom will spread the load, or if you are willing to spend your time and sweat you can trench down two feet and fill it with gravel, building a wall above that. Gambion baskets full of stone, tires full of gravel, wet or dry fit stone etc. realy depends on what your ethetic is. Most of the old houses and barns in you neck of the woods where just set on a couple of flat stones at each corner (keeps water from crawling up the rock) but we want somthing a bit beter here, lol. In this case, i would love a stone foundation but that is a bunch of work, so we need to look at somthing else what do you want to use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 PTree - Thanks for the information. Every little bit here is helping and putting me into a position to think. 29 years ... that is the kind of durability I am looking to build. Pardon my asking, but is 'boiler tube' pipe? Charles - I doubt it helps, but I really don't know, at this point. I know that I will be going on 'walk about' this weekend, looking for large flat stones. I need to see what I have versus what I shoud use. I kown there is a stream bed, off property I can collect fist sized stones from, but that is about a mile to carry 5 gallon buckets of rocks. Maybe I can use the ATV to climb the hill with those buckets. I will have to look into it. I know the auger on teh tractor will give me an 18" diameter hole a little over 30" down. I'm thinking large stone or creek rock, 6" or so deep and that should let water flow away from the wood. I'm still waiting to hear back on the RR ties. We were trying to negotiate on them, until his brother stated he was already planning to use them for a raised garden/herb bed several years ago ... Those two boys looked like the old 3 Stooges, with one missing and they both trying to make up for it. I also have a lead on 14 to 16 foot long utility poles. He just wants two RR spike hatchets. Good thing I cut some hickory saplings back in October. They are laid out, skinned and drying. Should make good handles. Again, Thank you all for the input. It means a lot to me to get this kind of guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 With utility poles there are 3 types, creasote, phenolic and Preshure treated. Creasote will look like chochlate, phenolic look dirty blond, with a tar coting on the bottom 6' and will have wood plus where the drilled to put presevitive inside and of corse pt looks greenish to grey. Solid creasot will last , wile phenolic may not. I would plan on using either ice block or roofing tar and plastic on the poles. Not nessisary on new creasot, but a good idea on the others. Oviusly steel is an opion, 2" or larger pipe, 3"+ chanel, 4"+ angle, I beam (mobile home frame?) old truck axles etc. steel will need to be painted with a good paint, tarred and raped unless it is green coated gas pipe. If sand and gravel are a a avalable to you on sight making cement on sight is not bad, use a sono tube, or some kind of form (i have used old stove pipe and thin wall sanitary pipe) a bit of rebar (or an old t post) are options Some of your local woods may be rot resistant as well, some oaks last 20 years (as good as pt) bodark, some cedar, red wood, cyperus... Chestnut was the gold standard there but alas they are extinct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Not to hijack your thread, but as this will be a "historic" document as are all posts on IFI, lets recap. You are desighning a shop around salvaged and harvested materials, and we have been consintrating our curent descusian on the foundation, wich must resist water and hold up the rest of the building for atleast 20 (idealy more) years. The use of 6x6 inground rated posts or poles has been sugjested, this is a proven and code compliant method. We are curently exploring other methods. As you apear to have plenty of small to medium sized timber I have been consintrating my sugjestions on materials that would provide a foundation from 30" below grade to 16" above grade, that is structuraly sound, as well as termight and moisture resistant that should provide 50+ years of service. The foundation is the first, most imprtant step in building a good shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I cheer the possibility of getting some utility poles! A pole barn doesn't need the extensive foundation other structures do. How many can you get? All the above ground wood can be harvested and if done to "working with green wood" methods can even be done green. A shed roof structure avoids the need for trusses. Leaving an opening right under the roof on both the high and low sides can help provide ventilation. Screening helps with the bug problems. If you could get enough utility poles to go along the sides you could then put plastic down and fill to the top with sand/gravel/clay for a dirt floor that being above and isolated from the ground would be fairly dry. (Half my shop floor is sand/gravel from the local arroyo and half is concrete; the "dirt" floor is sure easier on the feet & joints.) Also think of working in "bents" and building your structure longer as you have time, money and materials. So lay out the original section to allow for growth. The sides could have rolling barn doors that could be opened for major ventilation and more light. You could even build a second shed roof structure next to the first and cover over the gap and get a larger building without needing trusses. My shop the first 20x30 was professionally built---part of the deal with the wife to get the house *she* wanted. The second 20x30 was done out of my $20 a week vice allowance + stuff I made and sold. (Next will be shed add ons on the sides for storage cleaning out the working areas! I also took the tin roofing that was too damaged to use and put it down on the ground to put my scrap pile on to deal with weeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 As Tommas points out, the posts are the foundation, but if you dont have posts that will reach the roof, or not enugh, 4' posts will get you up where you can either frame up a wall or splice non rot resistant poles to the rot resistant ones. Like TP I like shed roofs, and if your building a pole barn or post and beam structure you will naturaly build in bents or bays. One shed with a high ceiling facing south and a shoertr one against it gives you a clearstory to light and ventelate the shop, will building two seperated by a space as TP suggested ( this is a "two crib" in the local vanacular, face them so the prevaling sumer brease comes in between them and cap, again with clearstory windows to provide light and ventilation) this gives you an old school barn. As to pole spacing, 6x posts are good at 12" this alows a 2x4 (on edge) or 3x3 to span the roof on 4' centers as a perling and a 2x12 or a 8x8 span from post to post over a 12" bay. 4x4 on 8' with 6x6 rafters work as well, 2x layed flat will span this space on 24" as perlings. Perlings assume a meatal roof, 1/2 the spacing for shingles, if you get crazy and sod the roof, increase bent size and perling size by 50% or reduce spacing by 1/3 to acomidate an extra 100# per square foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 And followup from Zylogue as to what you are going to do? You got lots of advise and ideas from all parts of the country. Updates? Progress? Photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zylogue Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Requested update. One word: Weather. It has been either very wet or very cold, here, the last several weeks. Because of that, my time has been spent either at work or taking care of my parents with shores such as splitting firewood, doctors appointments, grocery runs and the ever popular hospital visits. Tomorrow may be a day I can get out and clear more of the trees and scrub that is in the area I intend to build. Thanks for asking. Another status update, when something is changed, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.