Admanfrd Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I used some very high carbon steel from railroad track and it crumbled when I hit it. How do I stop this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Are you saying you hit a section of railroad track with a hammer and it crumbled? I'm thinking either your description of what is going on is a little lacking or maybe you are just about the toughest smith I ever heard of!! If the material you are talking about was heated in the forge, then struck and it crumbled on you, that sounds to me like you had yourself a piece of cast iron and not high carbon steel. I am only guessing though because there is not much detail in the OP. If you would elaborate a little bit more as to what you did and what the material was, we may be able to give you a more accurate assessment. -Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 It was heated rr track at a white heat. It moved around a liitle, then cracked and crumbled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Ive forged a couple of blades out of RR track. It should be about like 1080 or so theoretically. Atleast the older stuff was. Had no problems forging it out except that it was a thicker piece so a realy bear to get moving. Why a white heat, isnt that welding temps or higher? Mine forged fine at about 2000F or bright orange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I think you got it too hot. If I'm forging a file into a knife and got it white hot/ sparkling it would crack and fall to pieces. I suspect the same has happened here. Try again and don't get it so hot. All the best Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 You are way too hot. If high carbon steel is sparking you are too hot to forge (and are damaging the metal). Forge in the orange/yellow range max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 White heat = ruined steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 This is one of the reasons we warn people that "practicing" bladesmithing on mild steel can lead one astray. The higher carbon alloys generally are forged at lower temps than mild steel and much lower than wrought iron. Many knife grade steels will burn at what wrought iron considers a pleasant working temp. Some of the high alloy steels exhibit what I call "cottage cheesing" where they crumble into small pieces at temps below their burning temps. If you have looked into any of the better bladesmithing books you will find instructions on temperature ranges for forging of particular alloys as well as similar information on heat treating them. Go to your local public library and ILL the Complete Bladesmith by Hrisoulas; You will save yourself much time and money thereby! And BTW RR track is not very high carbon compared to a file or especially to an old black diamond file. It is a good high carbon steel; just not at the upper ranges of high carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah just looked back at my notes and realized its more 1060 to 1070 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Adman, I made the same mistake you did, when trying to forge some railroad rail. Its decieving, becuase your mind wants to say Hotter=easier to move. When in reality, hotter=crumbling metal. Like everyone else has said, orange is best for this steel. Now, to add to the knowledge of everyone, including myself, I will ask: If we accidentally heat a piece of railroad rail to white heat, and realize it before we hit it, is there anything we can do to make it usable again, or is it plain ruined? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 pull it out of the heat and let it cool, Not in open air but in the coals away from the air blast. remember the pyramid of fire air, fuel heat. The metal is hot already, so cant reduce that fast. the steel is the fuel, so moving it wont change anything either. BUT room air has about 21% Oxy when you pull a hot steel out of the fire it may start to sparkle just because it now has 21% O2, while in the fire it was much less, becausee even with the air still on, its that same 21% Oxy minus what was burned by the coals. so If it over heats, stop the air blast, adjust position of steel away form the hot spot of your fire, but not in open air, like off to the side at low burn zone, where there is little to no oxy left over for the steel to use, and we reduce one of the 3 things needs to burn. After the metals color drops it may be fine, or may need triming of the burned area, but it will be less damagte than running around in 21% free Oxy would have bone. Best thing is watch the metal in the fire and dont let it get too hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Usually when we use higher grade steels we do so for a purpose and so "salvaging" a possibly messed up piece may interfere in that purpose on the long term. Or: for a blade or a tool I am selling or making for another I will discard a piece that was over heated. (For myself well yes I have been known to salvage stuff...first H13 slitting chisel I cottage cheesed one end and so ended up with a shorter slitting chisel for myself; It's worked fine for most of a decade now---I need to do a real short one to use with my screwpress..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 It wasn't sparkling, and really was just incandescent, BARELY about to turn white. It worked for a while... I think there may be some impurities though. oh well. Thanks for the responses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Can you say which part of the rail you were using. There can be impurities ecspecially in the foot of the rail. Even some of the slightly newer rail from my understanding can be basically recycled steel that is not well refined. I was lucky in getting mine as its pretty darn old and comes out ok. This is just all stuff I have read about it. The couple of blades I made from it I did a quench aiming for a hamon. Got a cool temper line and then decided to etch it pretty good. The steel had some really cool grain lines in it (probably from the impurities) and hardened up pretty good. Wanna make another one when I get a chance. Its just hard stuff to forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 i was using the top where a train wheel would contact it. It is a really small rail. maybe used for amusement park ride? not really sure about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Old rail is usually going to be around 3" tall. Ironically enough, the date it was made will be cast into the side. I've got some 3" main line that was made in 1903. Looks like it never had a car roll across it. It takes practice to "read" the steel. You'll ruin a few, learn from it and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Even that heat is too high, if it was about to turn white. Depending on your light conditions, it may have already reached the temperature that it is ruined at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I have both trolley rail and mine rail in my pile and oddly enough I have not seen the date on either and they are much smaller than 3" My "not heavy RR rail" was originally probably about 4.5" tall but has worn down to a bit over 4.25". Well worn rail is a better surface to pound on. New rail is crowned and a pain to work on. Being where you are at my first guess would be mine rail. However trolley rail might be a possibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Thanks you all for the ideas and suggestions! I will take them to heart and try again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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