Joel OF Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hi folks, I need a bit of advice about saws, I've done a search or two for existing threads covering this but I can't find any. Basically I want to get a bench top saw like a chop saw or mitre saw to upgrade from cutting everything with angle grinders, (mainly for safety reasons), but I'm naive about power tools and I read conflicting reviews. Can anyone offer me any buying dos and don'ts? There's a few Evolution Rage sliding mitre saws on sale at the minute but some of them sound too good to be true...and I'm a cynic. Cheers for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hi Joel, Does it have to be bench top? And what sizes and materials are you going to be cutting with it? The Evolution Rage sliding mitre saws are basically for timber, with 'occasional ' use on metal, not really suitable for long term metal cutting. If you go for a carbide blade metal cutting machine, you will need to have access to saw grinding / sharpening facilities. There are grinding wheel cut offs but you already know their problems. My first choice would be for an older reciprocating style of hacksaw machine, you can load these up, and let them run, and you don't have to be there with them, they steadily go on, and should stop when through the metal, You can cut bundles of 100 off 1/2" square bars at a time if you are doing production runs. Blades are easily replaceable, last a long time, and are relatively cheap, The other option is a bandsaw, these can be bench mounted or floor standing, some even swing up to vertical so you can saw profiles with them ideal for weathervane profiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 If you are working in a very small hobby shop you might consider a hand held bandsaw. Milwaukee Tool makes a great one. Much quieter than cutting with a angle grinder. Also no sparks. I have one and I also bought a little table that it quickly bolts on to use it like a tiny vertical saw. A handy thing for cutting small sheet metal iteams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Olivo Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 A portaband can be a very useful tool. I would recommend a Milwaukee or Makita and modify it as I did here with a cheeper version. Wish I had just gotten a heavy duty one. I have used chop saws and they can be great. http://ipneto.deviantart.com/art/Platten-modification-for-bandsaw-323162990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Greetings Joel' I guess I am old school The best all around saw is a Roll In band saw Do some research You willl be amazed what it can do. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Yes a Roll In saw is just the best. Certainly a good buy for a professional full time metalworking shop. I am waiting to be able to afford one for my shop one day. I just do not have the 2000-4000$ to spend on one at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Carbide saws make nice clean, accurate, bur free cuts in materials, but throw a shower of sharp slivers around vs the sparks an abrasive saw does. Note that you can't just toss a carbide metal blade on any old saw. The dedicated carbide metal saws run a a much lower RPM than the abrasive ones. I've got three abrasive saws and I will eventually replace at least one of them with a good carbide one. Note that these saws are a poor choice for some materials like hardened steels. Also how you use the saw will determine how well they will cut and how long the blades will last. I've seen guys destroy a brand new blade on the 1st cut because they try and horse the saw thru the work vs going slow and steady. Also if you don't put enough pressure on the saw, you'll slip the teeth on the work and dull the blade. As mentioned you'll want to know someone who can sharpen the blades, they are not cheap to replace. A band saw is another really good choice, either hand held or stationary. I've got one of each. The nice thing about the stationary saw is I can set it up and let it cut while I do other work with minimal attention. It's great for gang cutting multiple pieces and so on. mine can also be used as a vertical bandsaw, though I seldom do so. The hand held saw gets used a lot for individual cuts. They also sell aux "chop saw" stands and vertical bandsaw mounts to make these a bit more versatile. I'd love to get my hands on one of the Jet stationary saws that will cut angles, or better yet an Ellis saw. Tech school has two Ellis saws and I love them. I have several reciprocating saws ( sawzal) but seldom use them for metal work. A power hacksaw would be nice, but I can do pretty much anything it can with my stationary bandsaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 interesting method of repurposing a handheld portaband as an upright bandsaw '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> similar discussion about chop saw replacement '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> I cant for the life of me find the schematic im looking for of a way to cut, bend and weld angle iron or other flat bar into a frame/housing for an angle grinder that will let you use it like a table saw though =/ sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windancer Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Makita makes a steel cutting saw that looks like the regular chop saw but it uses better blades that walk through steel and leave very smooth cuts. It also has a capture area that prevents 99% of the sparks and metal particles floating around the shop. In the $500 range and the replacement blades are $100 a pop but last a very long time. Guy at the local tool repair place has one and loves it! Never seen one run myself, but looks and sounds like something to check out. Think I looked at user reviews on Amazon, most were positive. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Thanks for the reply folks, thanks for the links Chinobi. Your replies have prompted me to clarify a few things, so here goes. (Again, I'm quite naive about power tools so please bare with me). I primarily want a saw to be able to cut straight lines in the typical "off the rack" round/square/flat stock sizes for the sorts projects you'd expect to see on market stalls and beginner commissions. If there's a saw that could also cut circles out of sheet then that'd be great because I like making bowls with 3 and 4mm sheet, but I appreciate that might require a separate type of saw for that purpose alone. I'm lacking in floor space so something veritical and bench mounted appeals to me. I want to get away from hand held saws for various reasons including: safety, precision (including reducing the amount of filing/grind needed to be done after a cut), and you lose a vice when you cut hand held whereas with things like chop saws they seem to have vices built into them. I'm drawn to things like mitre saws/chop saws because you lock the stock in place and bring the saw down, seemingly removing as much human error as possible. Any kind of saw when you feed the material into it increases room for error, I do understand though that there isn't a saw that will cut a profile without me guiding the material into the blade. If I had to chose one or the other my main priroity is having a saw that will cut straight lines, not profiles. I may be wrong about this but having a toothed saw as opposed to an abrassive saw appeals to me more because you can see what you're doing better. I appreciate that what I'm describing might mean purchasing two types of saw but as I'm lacking in knowledge about the capabilities of various types of saw there may well be a type of saw that does everything I want it to and I've been looking in the wrong direction thus far. Oh yeah, budget. I'm not made of money, infact I haven't got a pot to .... in but I do appreciate that the right tool for the job will cost what it costs. I'll cross the budget bridge when I get to it haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Hi Joel, Check out the Axminster Tools site, click on metal cutting, and you will have a full range there to choose from with prices and specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Cheers John. My Dad talks about Axminster like a kid in a sweet shop, and sadly I am slowly turning into my Dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Evolution makes a dedicated carbide metal cutting saw. http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/uk/steel/evo355.php They also have a lighter version, the Rage2.. http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/uk/build/rage2.php Neither of these saws quickly adjusts to do miters like the Rage sliding saw does, but they will still cut angles. They are a much more rigid design that's typically better for cutting metal. From what you are describing, these sound a lot like what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Cheers DSW. I was aware of them already so I'm glad your suggestions are starting to confirm my prior research. One lingering question - taking the Evolution mitre saws as an example, if there was a metal cutting blade that was the right size to fit one of the mitre saws, would it be ok to put it on there or would you folks advise against it? That's kinda a hypathetical question because I think they've made the various saw and blade sizes inconpatible. i.e 210mm mitre saws and 355mm steel cutting blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I'm not sure I understand your question. Maybe this will help you understand and answer your question. If you look at that 1st link to the dedicated metal cutting saws instruction manual, it's listed as 1450 RPM. Dedicated wood saws are usually listed as 3000rpm to 3600 RPM. Most blades designed for steel aren't set up to be run at the higher RPMs. There are a few out on the market, but blade life is usually fairly short at those speeds. Often those blades are really designed for cutting thin steel studs or alum gutter vs bar stock. If you are picking out a dedicated metal saw for a shop, you really want to go with one that has the lower RPMs vs a high RPM saw. If you are looking for an "all purpose" saw, for example for my contracting type work then maybe a higher RPM saw might fit the bill. However you'll give up blade life for the ability to be able to cut thru steel alum on occasion. For example I frequently "reuse" 2x's that have come out of demo work, typically for shorts and blocking. Since they get cut out with a sawzall to simply cut thru the nails, they have nails stuck inside the wood. Hit one or two with a typical wood blade and the blade is junk. Hit them with one of those "combo" blades, and chances are the blade is still fairly useful. However if I take and try to cut 1/2' bar stock with a combo blade, while it will "work", I won't get many cuts before I've junked the blade. Blades aren't cheap and getting them sharpened can be a expensive and annoying. Same thing applies to most metal working tools, be it drill bits, saw blades, milling cutters or lathe tooling. High surface speeds ( usually controlled by RPM's will usually kill carbide cutters. To combat this you need to run coolants and or reduce the RPM's and feed rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Cheers DSW! For someone that didn't understand the question you more than hit the nail on the head, you could say you sawed it. Boom-boom. I'm so glad I've never met any of you, I'd be flat broke from all the thankyou beers I'd have to buy! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 When you see the same question asked often enough on other sites, it's easy sometimes to read between the lines and know what the question actually is. PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Joel, it seems like most of the answers have come your way! I'd like to add a bit in a small way, I have at least one of most types of saws and the one I don't have is a portaband, sadly they are not readily available here and on my travels I have always been tempted but the 110v just kills it! I would strongly advise that you rebook at John B's suggestion of a powerhacksaw man those are versatile and accurate , due to your relative location you should be able to pick one up real cheap(they are big and heavy so a lot of companies just scrap them as the staff prefer using bandsaws(much quicker) but I recon if you get one you'll probably use it for the next say 20 years ;) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Cheers Ian. Yep, the value of John's advise is never overlooked! What do we think of this? http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_leaf.php?id=9514 I'm kinda sentimental for old gear but I have mixed feelings about that company's pricing...and new stuff comes with warranties and to me you can't put a price on peace of mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobL Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 My favourite metal cutting saw is this used small metal cutting bandsaw that I paid $100 for. I added an aquarium pumped coolant loop that does increase cutting speed but the blades last a lot longer It's supposed to be limited to cuts that are 6 wide x 4" tall but I have modified it so it can cut 7.5" wide. It's slow but quiet and accurate and you can leave it do its thing and it turns itself off when the cut is finished. It also stands upright and can be used to cut curves. I used this saw to cut the 6" radius of curvature curves in 1/4" steel plate for the back and front doorway flanges for my gas forge. The other metal cutting saw that I have thought about getting rid off several times but doubt I ever will, is a small (8" 1.5 HP) woodworking table saw in which I put thin kerf 5" cut off wheels. Because it's belt driven, the motor is well away from the blade so I can use water cooling and cut small stuff and hold the pieces quite close to the wheel without cooking ones fingers. The water cooling also suppresses the grit and dust thrown into the air but cut off wheels. The standard fence and mitre slide can be used and it's much easier to use than an angle grinder to ripping up small/medium pieces of sheet metal. Being only 2850 RPM it's slower slow than an angle grinder but It's MUCH quieter and I have less concern about getting my hands close to the wheel. I have used 100's of wheels on this saw. Since I got my bandsaw I have used is mainly to cut stuff like tool steel that is too hard for the bandsaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Joel, that looks like a bit of ''poo'' and at that price.....???? Who gives you the 'extras'? Get an old industrial 3 phase cheap and change the motor to single phase! Bob , got that one's brother. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Cheers for all the help guys. I reckon I'm gunna wait till the January sales and get a steel chop saw. I didn't appreciate all the differences between wood and metal cutting saws before so this has been very helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 The beauty of a bandsaw is that it doesn't matter how slow it cuts because you are not standing there watching it. Something like this is cheap but it still works, a bit of spray lube, keep the blade tension and guide rollers properly adjusted and a clean with a magnetic metal wand to keep the metal swarf away from the blade guides and don't run it in top gear and it will cut almost anything with no hassle at all. I have even cut shims accurate to within 5 thou with some fiddling around on a friends cheapie. this one is about $350 in Oz you can still mitre cut smaller diameter and shorter lengths without a lot of shop space. If you are looking at secondhand power hacksaws......well, I wouldn't. You need an experienced eye to spot a good one that is not worn, damaged or just a lemon that never worked and just jammed and snapped blades. 9 out of 10 I come across are "scrap only", the spare blades, electric motor and vice are handy at $20 but that is about it, you need to be close to an old industrial town to find any good quality ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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