Legality of Forging

[Ignatius]

I am new to this forum, and to blacksmithing. I am starting to buy everything I need, and I lucked out by finding an anvil in Maine for a great deal.

Then I thought of something that could get in the way...

I live in Worcester, MA and I was planning on buying a "portable" forge and forging outside and then disassembling everything when I am done and keeping it in the shed or under the deck.

Does anyone know if it is legal to have a forge outside in Massachusetts? This will obviously be on my property, and is in a suburban area.

Anyone have any information on this?

-Justin

[Ralph]

Not sure of legal issues, BUT if you talk with the neighbors and perhaps bring a small forged item as a gift they will NOT be calling the authoroties on you.
ALso you might wish to consider a gas forge as it has less smell. Also consider sound-silencing on your anvil. Firmly attached to the stand helps knock down the ring. Some folks say a length of chain around the waist helps.

Good luck

[Glenn]

The president says "don't ask and don't tell" :wink:

If you run a gasser, it is not much different from a BBQ grill only your cooking steel instead of meat.

If your running coal, there may be objections from the neighbors to the smoke at start-up. If you build a "good fire" from sticks then add coal, there will be very little smoke from the coal as it will be consumed in the fire. Careful attention to fire maintance is the key to this method.

As Ralph said, make friends with the neighbors and a peace offering does not hurt your relationship at all.

Legally? that depends on the laws in your state, county, city, and subdivision. It also depends on the neighbor, their disposition, and if they have any tolerence for your hobby, or even you personally.

We can not tell you if or where you can play in fire, but there are several on this forum that will certainly help you with the how-to part. Ask about the how to's and we can help with that.

[elkdoc]

I just informed the neighbors ahead of time of my intentions. I asked what time they usually put the kids to bed so that the potential noise wouldn't interfere with their lives. Next door neighbor is a police officer and the whole neighborhood has been cool with it so far. They actually have expressed interest when I've run into them on the street.

A thin layer of silicone under the anvil helps kill the sound, too.

[Ralph]

Silicon works. SO does an old asphalt shingle

[Ignatius]

I'm planning on mounting the anvil on a good size piece of log so I can drag it around easier. As for the silicone, you put it on the bottom of the anvil? And is it silicone spray or silicone putty?

[Ralph]

between anvil and mount. Use ther stuff in a tube like for a caulk gun

[Swamp Fox]

There have been several ideas on how to lessen the ring of the anvil posted. They include wrapping a loose chain around the waist, magnets (big magnets) under the heel, carrage bolt in the prichel hole, silicone (tube type) between the anvil and stand, and putting the anvil in a bed of sand.

The anvil wants to vibrate when it is hit and anything you do to dampen the vibration, or interrupt the vibration will lessen the ring. I quess that would include using a wooden hammer. :roll: Some anvils ring better than others and some don't ring worth spit but still work well as an anvil.

[Ignatius]

What laws would I be looking up anyway? I'm trying to find laws about open flames, but I really can't find anything except that you can't burn garbage... I am not even sure if a forge would be considered an open flame.

As for noise ordinance, I wouldn't be out there early in the morning or late at night so that wouldn't be a problem. I live on the end of a dead end street and we are friendly with the neighors.

It's kind of a grey area because I technically live in a city so I am subject to different ordinances...but I'm in the suburban area which is about 200 feet from the rural area in a surounding town where blacksmithing wouldn't be a problem.

I can understand they don't want people downtown burning coal in front of city hall..seems to make sense

[Ralph]

Well...... if you really want to know call the Fire Marshall's office and ask what the rules are. BUT , I repeat But once you call they will know. ANd if someone does complain then you may be stuck.

Often I go by the motto
" It is easier to get forgivness than Permission."

[HWooldridge]

It's doubtful you will find a law to either allow or condemn working with a forge. If asked, most fire marshals will say 'no' to everything - especially in a big city where there is less leeway to variations in policy. Some years ago, San Antonio banned charcoal BBQ grilles at apartment complexes because a couple of people left them unattended and started structure fires. Now personally, I have grilled meat for almost 40 years on a charcoal cooker and never started an accidental fire so how did these knuckleheads do it? No matter, it happened so the law was passed and would probably apply to forges. However, many of our club members live in San Antonio and work in their garages or yards with no incidents of the fire marshal showing up, so a lot of it boils down to what has already been said - make friends with the neighbors and don't be a nuisance with smoke or noise. It will never be an issue if no one complains but if the Law does show up, be polite and explain the situation because they may say the same thing - be careful and keep the noise to a minimum. The issue of not having an ordinance on the books that addresses forges might work in your favor because you may not be ticketed if no law was broken.

As a safety note, gas is pretty safe but coal sometimes will throw sparks depending on the type and charcoal will usually throw a big shower of embers. A good tall chimney insures they will burn out before getting outside plus it throws the smoke up to a level where it is less objectionable to people at ground level. This is something to consider if you use solid fuel plus making sure every time you work that nothing is around which will start burning if an errant spark lands where you aren't looking.

Be sensible and you should be fine.

[Glenn]

Take what Hollis said a step further. Wet down a area 20 feet all directions with a water hose before you start. Then fill a 5 gallon bucket with water and keep it beside the forge, along side the fire extingusher, and the fully operational garden hose. If someone complains about a fire hazard, they can see that you have addressed that issue already.

As to smoke, Hollis is right again, higher the better and 1960's catch phrase "the sulution to polution is dilution" still applies. Put a whole house squirrel cage fan on the ground beside the forge, blowing straight up. It will serve as a chimney and not only push smoke 20-30 feet up into the air but also mix it with fresh air diluting the smoke. This does not replace good fire maintance to keep the smoke to a minimum, but takes a little smoke and spreads it around to make it seem like even less smoke.

[ThomasPowers]

Columbus OH had an ordinance banning any activity that produced fumes or smoke detectable over the property line; *except* there was an exception for cooking or heating...

I forged in the inner city for about 15 years; had problemjs with 1 neighbor who called the fire department on me about 4 times---funny thing it was always when I was using my smoker for cooking. I heard from a friend that they were told that another false alarm would result in a large fine...

My next door neighbor grew up with a coal furnace and told me the smell always reminded her of her childhood and would I please forge more often...

I was shut down one time in Fort Smith AR because I let the time get away from me. When the police showed up I stopped immediately; apologized profusely, and spent the next half hour discussing knife forging with them...

Using a gas forge and a Fisher anvil woul;d sure make it hard for them to notice you---just fire up a leaf blower if they complain about the noise...

Thomas

[Ignatius]

Thanks everyone. I'm definatly more optimistic about doing this now.

Where would you suggest finding a reasonably priced gas forge, preferrably used?

And why would a fisher anvil make any difference in noise compared to any other anvil?

Speaking of anvils, I managed to find a 100lb anvil real cheap, dated 1843 and made...somewhere in new york if I remember correctly. It's a bit rusted now. How would I go about refinishing it?

[ThomasPowers]

Fisher anvils go "thud" when you hammer on them instead of "TING TING TING"; this is because they were made by taking a thick slab of tool steel and casting the body of the anvil onto it out of cast iron.

My main using anvil is a fisher and I use it in a smallish sheet metal building with no problem. My demo anvil is an Arm&Hammer and it's "TING" helps lure people over to see what's going on

Generally speaking the less you do to an anvil the better. *All* anvils have a hardened face of limited thickness so you want to reduce that the least ammount as possible. I fould go over the face with a sanding disk on an angle grinder to remove the rust and see if it needed any more work.

NOTE: you don't *need* the face to be flat, just smooth; many people have ruined anvils trying to grind or mill the face flat when it was perfectly usable with a sway in it as it came.

(In knifemaking a bit of a sway is helpfull as you need to go just a tad past flat when straightening a blade so it will spring back to straight.)

Thomas

[Archie Zietman]

You live in Wocester MA? MA? YES!!!!! another smithing enthusiast in MA! sorry, it's just that I have been keeping my eyes open for fellow Massachusetts smiths (for no apparent reason)and haven't found any. i've been using a charcoal forge in my driveway (in the very middle of salem) for a while and nobody has complained or come after me.

[Nolano]

I use a fisher anvil as well as a coal forge, and nobody has complained yet. however, I have only been doing it for a few weeks. However, the neighbors on both sides make a considerable amount of noise, and im not forging at night, so they may not even mind.

[T-Gold]

There are many smiths in MA... just gotta look. I know several myself, all the way from Hawaii!

[Ten Hammers]

Ignatius, My opinion is that the first folks you got to please is your insurance company. You have an unplanned fire and who pays ? Blacksmithing is something everyone has to start at some point in their life if they wish to learn the trade (even Junior.. . Even at an established business (smithy) someone has worried about things like zoning (and hopefully fire protection). My ins company covers me for a fireplace on my house. They (agent) tell me that I'm covered for a woodstove as well (even in an outbuilding). I have not had an unplanned fire in my shop for the past 15 years of it's exsistance and for that I am extremely greatful. I take fire seriously and manage my shop accordingly. This includes the forge and all applications (torch, grinding, wiring, plasma etc ). I like happy neighbors. The place accross the street is a rental and folks have come and went over the years. The place to the south is not. These 2 places are my main concern for noise. Chopsaws, die grinders and any hammering noise may happen at all hours in my shop. I have kept a constant vigil of asking neighbors over the years about any noise problems. I have kept happy neighbors. I must admit however that my main concern is to keep the insurance folks happy by paying the premium. My stuff burns, I'm outta business till I get more stuff. Neighborhood burns due to fire on my place somebody is gonna eventually look into who and where the fire started. I have a lifetime of training in bottle safety, electricity and other things like fire management and prevention. This does not insulate me from SSGT Murphy acts of God or brain farts. I've always used coal. I live in a small town in Iowa. I'm friends with the Fire Chief. I would wade softly when I searched for laws and ordinances. There are issues. Some fire folks don't either understand or appreciate the brimstone like violence we as smiths practice. Some council members are the same. You should see first if you are covered on your home policy. Make friends with your fire boys (even if some of them are girls. ). Firefighters and medics go where the devil himself fears to tread. For the very large part they are not foolish people. Show them that you are a responsable individual. Have a portable fire extinguisher (ABC rated). You yourself should have fire prevention training and shop safety training. This all sounds like I'm a zealot but I will just say that I am a man that takes things seriously in life (just ask the wife and kids). When problems arise someone will be held accountable and that will be the person starting the chain of events into motion. HAVE FUN ! Artist Blacksmiths create many things. Urban neighborhoods are a mixture of folks. Make friends. Keep friends. Get trained. Ask all the questions you want in places like this (thank you Glenn) but CYOA because it will eventually come down to your descions made when the fat lady sings.

[ThomasPowers]

Funny thing fires...I forged in a falling down detached garage built in the 1930's for 14 years, coal, charcoal, gas; poured molten metal, forge brazed and enameled, *never* had a fire.

Less than a year after I moved to NM I hear that the garage burned down at my old place...


My new shop has *ZERO* wood in it's construction, all concrete and steel and 2 sheets fiberglass at the end farthest from the forges.

Thomas

[Marc]

If any of you are looking for smiths in MA, head on down to http://newenglandblacksmiths.org to see some info, and maybe join up. Our website is a bit stale, and we're trying to get some help with that. But the basic (non-calendar) info is good.

And MA is chock-full of smiths.

--Marc

[Quenchcrack]

Ignatius, go to eBay and look for Poorboy Blacksmith tools storefront. The man who runs this storefront is an honest man and knows pretty much what he is doing. He can supply you with a gas forge for less than $200 and a lot of hobby grade anvil tools at very reasonable prices. He posts a lot at anvilfire and his name is Ken Scharabok. Please note, I cannot attest to the honesty of anyone else selling blacksmith tools on eBay. :roll:

[Glenn]

Ignatius, If your still looking for blacksmiths in your area try this link.

New England Blacksmiths

Connecticut Blacksmith's Guild

New York State Blacksmiths

Northeast Blacksmiths Assoc

[elkdoc]

I can atest to Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools. I've bought a couple of tools from Ken's ebay store and have been nothing but pleased. Good stuff for the hobbyist or even cheapskate. :lol:

[Ignatius]

Thanks for the info.

Are there any magazines about blacksmithing?