Pilkington squeaking

[nickattfield]

G'day ,

          I have a forge in Tasmania , and a Pilkington , it has just developed a very bad squeak around the flywheel area and a loss of speed , am I looking at a bearing problem , if so has anyone any helpful hints, or other ideas

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[forgemaster]

Does it have internal or external lubrication ie a sump or not. and what size is the hammer.  We have an alldays that has a flywheel that is always coming loose.

 

Phil

[swedefiddle]

I can see the problem from hear!! Just turn it a little to the starboard and you will get the port.

 

If you fill it with concrete it might have a vibration, That wood bee bettor!! :)

 

No problem two difficult.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Nick, glad to have you. Plese put your general location in the header so folk close to you will know you're there and we won't have to keep asking.

 

Sorry, I'm no help with the hammer but I like saying hellow anyway.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jim Deering]

Sent you a PM Nick... Have a read, see what you can find

[Alan Evans]

Is it dry bearings? What lubrication system does it have? Is it belt or gear driven? It is definitely a squeak and not an air leak whistle?
Can you see a shiny worn area?

I have Alldays' hammers. The 3cwt has a sump and oil pump. The 1cwt has a hand pump on the back for the air way lubrication, loose ring for the main bearings, oil cup for the big end and grease pot for the little end.

I was concerned that there was a bit (0.5mm) of wear in the main bearings. The man that maintained the fleet of Alldays at Vaughans said he tests them with a 1500mm (5') pry bar under the fly wheel. If there is more than 12mm (1/2") of up and down movement he recasts and machines the bearings. So wear not that critical!

I have PDFs of the maintenance and drivers handbooks if you would find them useful.

More info required for us to diagnose. Pictures?

Alan

[forgemaster]

OP seem to have gone quiet, maybe his squeek has done the same.

[Alan Evans]

OP seem to have gone quiet, maybe his squeek has done the same.

Must have been loud though to hear it above the din of the geardrive hum and the chuff. Maybe Jim forwarded the maintenance leaflets to him and he is a slow reader? :)

Which reminds me of two other things to share about worn Pilkington / Alldays for general reassurance. I have told the tales of my cylinder head and tup dovetail on other threads.

David James had a 2cwt with a worn slave cylinder / tup and sorted it by machining up a piston ring and groove.

Mike Roberts' initially had no motor mounting plate or motor with his and had an aluminium pinion machined to stand in for the usual tufnall fibre one - always sounded awful graunching but worked. Now he has moved the motor back to take it out of mesh and used a modern flat belt which just runs on the tips of the teeth and it is super quiet. No machining required. One day when I have nothing better to do I will convert mine.

Alan

[forgemaster]

The flat belt sound interesting, they always are a noisy beast.

[nonjic]

I would have very grave reservations about someone who suggests 1/2" clearance is acceptable in crank bearings. Ive seen them knock the big end bolts loose, and throw the conn rod with much less clearance than than from the cyclical hammering.

[Alan Evans]

I would have very grave reservations about someone who suggests 1/2" clearance is acceptable in crank bearings. Ive seen them knock the big end bolts loose, and throw the conn rod with much less clearance than than from the cyclical hammering.

 

I fear the tone of my post may not have come over correctly for you to have responded thus. :) probably lost in the translation of the metric dimensions! :)

 

I think he was 'slightly' over exaggerating in order to reassure me that my <0.5mm was not to be concerned about. I was trying to describe his bit of bravado.

 

To mirror the tone of your serious and informed comment however, I would like to point out that at no time did he or I say that 1/2" was acceptable. Even if you take what I reported him saying as more than just a figure of speech....it was that 1/2" was not acceptable because he would then remake the bearings...

 

 

Are you selling ANYANG again or did BABA publish an old advert by mistake in the current issue?

 

Alan

 

Still no response from the OP?

[nonjic]

Hi Alan! I have seen hammers running with 1/2" clearance in the con-rod bearings and 'maintenance' teams that think its ok, 'just knocking a bit' ! A 40 cwt in a forge I worked in, (in the UK), was run in this condition. Great untill it threw the rod, which took off a balance weight from the crank, which took off the drivers legs.

 

Guess ive just seen the '**** it, it will be OK' attitude go wrong to many times now :) (getting old ?!!)

 

Not selling any small hammers still, most of our work at the moment is spares and break down repair work on large eccentric shaft type forging presses. TBH I forgot about the BABA ad !

[forgemaster]

Loose big end bolts and bearing, its OK we'll tighten it up on Friday,

This is a con rod off a 15 cwt massey at the compertitions workshop

[Alan Evans]

Ouch!

 

 Great untill it threw the rod, which took off a balance weight from the crank, which took off the drivers legs.

 

Ouch!

 

Loose big end bolts and bearing, its OK we'll tighten it up on Friday,

This is a con rod off a 15 cwt massey at the compertitions workshop

 

Ouch! and double ouch!

 

I think there must be a difference of attitude towards kit between the employees working on the big machines you mention and owner operators.

 

You would think employees would welcome the down time while the kit was repaired. I suppose if they were working on the piece work rate like Hill Foot forge in Sheffield or West Midland Stampers the financial incentive to keep going is much the same....but the actual cost of the repairs is not their responsibility they only lose on down time.

 

 

When the tup dovetail cracked on my 3cwt it was the extra little knock at the top of the stroke in the general roar that we heard and stopped the hammer before the tools went out of line. The same goes for the cracked cylinder head. It is interesting that despite the sensory "deprivatory" gear we wear (muffs glasses and gloves and boots) that the slight variation in the hammer's song was immediately apparent. 

 

Must be awful to live with the knowledge of making the wrong decision of whether to fix or not in those circumstances and the damage it did to someone else...

 

Alan

[nonjic]

Its never my decision to fix, or not. That is the decision of the machines owners.

 

It is difficult when you can see the machines owner thinks you are 'scaremongering' to get work when you tell them what needs doing.

 

I spose what I am saying is 'dont ignore the knocks' !

 

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/local/crushed-legs-firm-fined-1-1024487

[Alan Evans]

Do those big companies not have an in house maintenance team then? I would have thought that loose big end bolts and was definitely within a general operator maintenance remit like keeping the oil topped up. Do they just rely on your visit and inspections? How frequently do you go? Is it based on hours of machine time or every few weeks?

 

My "constant vigilance" "stop and fix within a couple of blows regime" would appear to be fairly good in comparison!

 

I did have to replace the belts on my 50kg Reiter because of over greasing the main and big end bearings and the grease rotted the rubber. And my assistant assiduously greased the motor bearings on the 3cwt which soaked into the windings and prompted a £500 rewind.

 

Both fairly good faults I suppose in this context!

 

Alan

[nonjic]

lots of places have sacked the maintenance to save money, and only call you in when something stops working altogether. To big a subject to get into.....

[forgemaster]

What happens when the management and the employees get off side with one another, the big boss (owner) lives in Sydney and only comes to that branch once on race day, so long as they are still putting out the work he does'nt see the need to worry, also he is not a blacksmith only a bean counter really, so he has to rely on his managers to see that all is going OK, my mate who took the photo kept on telling the young guys on that hammer to fix the knock, they all work production bonus, and he was not going to give up his production to fix their machine (fair enough I suppose) he also told management that the big ends were loose, but they just passed it down to the crew on that hammer.  Sort of like the young guy who's parents buy him his first car and he does;nt bother to check the oil, check the tyre pressures, check the water until one day it just ceases to go, then he wonders why, same mentality,and probably about the same age.

My mate stops forging early on Fridays and spends the last 2 hours of the week just doing maintainence on his hammer and manipulator and grab fork.  He realises that this is what earns his pay and what puts food on the table, when his hammer etc stops, so does his production bonus, and its easier to do your job with good equipment that works well. then with machinery that is one step from the scrap bin.